jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[SpeedBird]

Tony:

Let me first say that I find it somewhat remarkable that you feel the need to parse the words of any jetBlue pilot with regard to how he/she may describe their professional working relationship with their fellow pilots and/or jetBlue management. Tell me is that really the issue for you or do you have some other ax to grind here. I could almost understand if you were a pilot for AA, UAL, or DAL.....but FedEx.....please!

Anyway, your example of the B707 is at best a poor example wrt to the issue here at hand. But does speak volumes about the mindset you have regarding how you view this profession through the prism created by the Civil Aeronautics Board which died over a generation ago.

First, the example you're trying to square this issue with occurred during a time when this industry was highly regulated and airfares were controlled by the CAB, not by free-market forces in a deregulated industry like we have today. This meant that pilot unions could negotiate "productivity" increases in hourly rates with a much larger and faster aircraft and all management had to do was get the CAB to bump up airfares in controlled (i.e., limited competition) markets to recover any extra cost increases, if necessary. The margin between costs and yields remained largely intact by all airlines affected by such pilot actions. This led to the birth of pattern-style bargaining tactics which served both sides in a regulated environment.

Once again, today's industry bears virtually no resemblance to your example. As B707s began transcon service it put the technologically inferior DC-7s, Connies, and Stratocruisers out of the market almost overnight. The issue here does not take into account any technological enhancements which might give one airline a clear operating advantage over another and thus allow pilots to be paid more purely on that basis only.

With the EMB-190s jetBlue will exploit the regional markets which are largely served by express carriers with 50-70 seat RJs; and while they may be less expensive to operate than a mainline 100 seat aircraft; they only serve as an intermediate stop-gap to what customers demand in those markets in both pricing and comfort; and what LCCs will provide to them at even lower cost to their financial bottomlines. This particular segment of the market is ripe for the picking due in large part from the decision of mainline pilot groups to institute scope agreements between themselves and their regional partners several years ago. This artificiality of the industry is now going to bite countless pilots on the butt who are subjected to such scope agreements. Free-market systems do not tolerate such artificially imposed restrictions and eventually take advantage of such impediments by those who are not constrained by them.

I find it ironic that some people are quick to accuse jetBlue of bringing down the industry, yet jetBlue will maintain a single pilot seniority at the airline. Imagine if other mainline pilot groups had allowed the same thing years ago, instead of separating themselves from thousands of otherwise qualified pilots and turning them into the proverbial red-headed step children of the industry. Scope agreements should have never been instituted and now this artificiality will be exploited by LCCs which don't have an obligation to do so simply for nothing other than basic business and competitive reasons. Look, I am not defending the actions of jetBlue managers in this situation, but to label them as selfish and exploitive of their own pilots makes me wonder about the hair-trigger nature of some to act in such a manner with less than all the facts in hand and despite David & Dave's long track record of dealing more than fairly with jetBlue pilots in the past.

The domestic airline industry we see today is not the industry of our fathers' or grand-fathers' time, let alone 5 years ago. Everyone demands that the changes we are witnessing to our profession must be halted and reversed, and we are quick to condemn and find fault with those who appear to violate the standards which have taken decades to create. But what is happening to the profession is much bigger and more complex than what any single pilot group can withstand. If the two unionized pilot groups representing the two largest airlines in the world couldn't stop the major reductions in their hourly rates and work rules, how can you seriously believe that jetBlue is going to do anything materially different? Despite this fact I have yet to see the same level of collective frustration aimed at AA & UAL pilots as I've witnessed on these boards against jetblue pilots. Tony, this is why I find your comments not only out of order but extremely disingenuous.

Bottom-line: Going forward pilots will not be paid based on the old ways of defining productivity under the methods used during the heydays of a regulated industry, but based on what an airline can earn based on the difference between revenues and costs....as defined by an unregulated marketplace. Don't mistake my statements here as an approval of such changes. I don't like this anymore than any of you, but I also understand that it is very improbable that we can return to the pay rates and work rules that we've witnessed in the past and perhaps mistakenly believe that we all deserve better as a matter of principle. The gravity and reality of the situation forces me to temper my expectations and not go flying off the handle because my financial value as a pilot is not being maintained at some arbitrary level implemented during a much different time in our industry.

Finally, while you want to create a theorhetical mutually-exclusive environment between the goals of managers and pilots in how we should be compensated, I see the situation as it exists at jetBlue where both sides can be mutually satisfied, but only if cooler heads prevail and jetBlue pilots stay focused on what's relevant.

What's important is not what you think we should do in this instance, but what we as jetBlue pilots will do armed with all the information needed to make an informed and carefully considered decision on what will first be best for us, our company, and if possible what is good for this profession. JetBlue is too young and too small to act as your sole vehicle for fixing single-handedly what ails this profession. So please spare us your disdain for how we employ the use of the words "WE" and "THEY."

 

[jetblue320]

So i guess a 400 pilot should be getting around 500 an hour? should a pilot on a 30 seat RJ get paid less than 1/3rd the EMB 190 rate? Skirt, I though you of all people would have some understanding of Decision 83. If he had bought 330's instead, I'm pretty sure he'd be saying "well the job of flying a 330 is no differant than flying a 320, so it should pay about the same..." Keep making excuses for your employers, all they care about is your well being right? Congrats Skirt, you left an airline that had a pilot group that cared about pay for even the bottom guy on the seniority list. Go call...

Once again, T-Bags comes out from underneath his internet rock to give his two cents worth. Thats all it is worth too. Go ahead Pal, call me a Scab again.....

C yaaa

 

[TonyC]

Tony,
Come on now. Read through the threads regarding the EMB rates and you will find a number of folks who have said they are embarassed.

You're missing my point. I see plenty of JetBlue folks expressing their embarrassment, but they're also pointing the finger of blame at management. If they had supported a labor-management relationship whereby they, labor, had some part in the negotiation with them, management, of pay scales, they could also claim innocence in the process whereby these pay rates were handed down.

Unfortunately, it's too late to have a voice in that process now. As you have so far expressed utter disdain for the collective bargaining process, you've also assumed responsibility for anything your super-empowered management hands down. As long as you refuse to step up and assume a role in the process, you give the company full license to do whatever they see fit, and you share the blame.

In all seriousness, could you or someone else tell us how much you think we should make at our 5 year old company? For the record, I think the EMB rates are poor.

I can tell you they should be better than 50-70 seat jet rates. I can tell you they should be negotiated by pilots and management, not decreed by management.

Also, do you think ALPA should have been voted in on day one of operations at JetBlue? An in house union from day one? If not how long?

Given the history of the airline industry, it should be evident that a process must be established whereby the laborer, the pilot, has a voice in the processes that affect him. When one's livelihood is so directly tied to the seniority that he enjoys, and the success of the airline that employs him, it is imperative that he have some part of the process. To leave ALL the cards in the hands of managment is folly.

The thing is, I've heard nothing but absolute, utter disdain for the unions or the thought of organizing labor from any JetBlue pilot on this board... up until this topic was raised. Perhaps if you would have been more receptive to the idea, and a little more open to learning the lessons of other successful companies, you might not find yourselves in the akward position you are now in.

This is off topic but could you please share with us the struggles of bringing ALPA on the property at FedEx? Why was ALPA decertified at Fed Ex? Wasn't there a failed vote to recertify ALPA?

How long did it take to organize an in-house union at Fed Ex? Did the early guys flying the Falcons organize?

Thanks

I'll not go into great detail, but I'll tell you this. It sounds a whole lot like JetBlue. The original FedEx pilots were grateful to have jobs, and Fred was great - - visited them in the pilot room, had a lot of chuckles, all was good. HE promised to pay them "Delta plus a Nickle" some day when the Company made the big time. Growth came, and beuracracy expanded, soon it wasn't Fred making the decisions - - he was just a figure head (where have I heard that before?). Pilots became disgruntled over an issue here and there, but never could get over the belief that Fred would take care of them. FedEx bought Flying Tigers and gained a wealth of ALPA faithful. They tried to bully FedEx pilots into accepting ALPA, and eventually got enough pro-union (any union) votes to support a union. ALPA had most of those votes, so they came on the property even without a majority support. Not long after their attempt at reaching a contract failed, FPA, an in-house union came on board. The true mission of FPA was questionable, but it allowed enough pilots to warm to the concept of collective bargaining and to educate themselves on the process and advantages of same, that we had a better-educated pilot force eventually vote to return ALPA to the property. Today we enjoy something on the order of 96% Membership - - all voluntary.

Bottom line - - it was a painful process, and it took many years. If we had been smarter, it would have occurred many years earlier, and we'd be enjoying much better pay rates and benefits by now. Pilots would be retiring at 60 rather than hanging around as Flight Engineers to make a comfortable retirement. It was a painful process, but SOME PEOPLE COULD LEARN FROM IT, if they'd just open their eyes. We learned a lot of lessons we'd be willing to share.

 

[lowecur]

G4g5

Lowcur,

I think that you are a liitle off base here. The mgt of LUV has already looked at the 190RJ issue and they have decided that at this point it makes little sence(but they did leave the backdoor open). The 190 is a new airframe and a new motor combination. LUV has no intension of becoming the guinea pig. It's just not worth it for them. Knock, Knock, Hello McFly, Is anybody home? We just had what most people would consider an earthquake to the rate structure. Luv is not the guinea pig, MAA is with the 170. They will either have to adjust the 737 rate structure by 15-20% to compensate, or buy the 175(I know I have mentioned the 190, but the 175 is better suited for WN). Which choice do you think that SWAPA will take? You guessed it, bring the 175 for $75. per hour. Now you know why male tigers eat their young.

How did B6 do the last time they tried a West coast fare war? First of all, the 320 is not made for short haul travel, where 737NG is very capable, and WN has the infrastucture to support it. The 190 is made for short, or medium long haul travel.

How much yeild is Jetblue going to make on the 190 when they are filling seats at $39 going againsta full SWA 737 at $39. This sounds to me like the stupidest thing that they could do with the 190. It's called IFE + 2/2 seating.......the aesthetic advantage. Think it won't work?.....just sit back and watch what happens by 2007.

The 737 still has tremendous adventages over the 190. Their is no cheaper commercial aircraft in the world to do maintenance on. I don't think Embraer agrees with you. In fact if you go the Embraer web site, I believe the rule of 70-110 specifically shows that the 190 is 25% cheaper to maintain than the 736. Which mean the 737NG is probably 30% more expensive. Due to the large numbers of 737's flying the economies of scale create huge pricing pressure on aircraft parts and supplies. Now if AMR is going to order three to four hundred of these 190's, and DL will probably do the same........how long do you think it will take for economies of scale to balance? Sure the 190 will be under warranty but how long will it take to get a spares supply built up around the country (like the 737). What about the earning curve associated with the introduction of a second type. How many Certified Repair stations at various airports around the country are going to have trained maint techs who can repair the 190? This is not Boeing tech support, no it's 1800 call the jungle to see if they have the spare. I could go on and on. It's extremely clear that LUV has done the research and decided that this is not a good idea (for them). Don' kid yourself.

An engine overhaul, brakes, rotables and spares will be cheaper on the 737 for years to come. Training costs for a single type are lower, LUV pilots come with their 737 types. LUV still can leverage fuel contracts better then anyone in the industry. How much longer do you think that will last? Flying one type still makes more sence. At a time when USAir and the other majors are ripe for the picking LUV has placed their largest 737 orders. What had B6 done? Gone after the smaller 190 market. Where is the higher yeild? Attacking USAir in PHL or starting a west coast fare war? Never said where they would start there first, I just pointed out that LAS would be easy pick'ns for them. They will start in the East first with replacment of the 320's in upstate NY. They will then move to a city in the mid-west....probably St. Louis or MDW.......depending how much longer ATA will hang in there.

 

[iflynights]

Tony,

I have the same feeling about the EMB rates as you, but as you work for a very profitable cargo operation, you really aren't in "our shoes." I am furloughed from a top 5 carrier and while they have maintained outstanding pay scales, alot of have taken a 100% pay cut. There certainly hasn't been a team approach to solving the problem, with people fly overtime and over 60 folks deciding to wrench for awhile instead of retiring.

The nature of the business has changed, and I believe the change is permanant. People search the internet for the absolute lowest fares and competition is cut throat. I think the years of defined pension plans is over, hope for a B fund and 401k. People will work harder and benefits will continue to erode. Industry pay is heading south big time ( I hope Fedex will be able to get a great contract with pay rates at airlines now much lower than FDX).

This tells me that the place to go is to companies like FDX and UPS. They have managed to remain very profitable and should continue to keep pay rates high and work rules somewhat intact.

Now, concerning the WE at Jetblue. I have been at Jetblue for over a year now and it is a good place to work. I don't have blind faith in management, but I will say they have been very fair. This new agreement is a case where I don't agree with them. I think the A320 should have received a 10-15% pay raise and the starting pay at the EMB captain about 90/hour. This is still very low, but most of us at Jetblue know the company is new and high growth. We want to keep costs down and profits up. At my last company, people didn't really care about the WE, just the ME. This kind of adversarial relationship sure doesn't add up to an enjoyable workplace and certainly doesn't add to the bottom line (and job security). **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, I will help pick up newspapers after a flight. I don't mind going downstairs to get a stroller. The flying over 8 hours per duty period was not a management idea, it was the pilots. I have flown max duty periods with six legs. I would rather fly a transcon turn any day and get credit for 12 hours of pay than work all day and make 5 hours of pay.

Maybe management will address the pay issue, maybe they won't. I think this will be a real test for them. I know I am searching for other employment. It certainly makes me more concerned about our 5 year contracts and managements intentions.

Don't blame Jetblue pilots for selling out the industry. We are trying to support our families and we don't make the pay scales. I do know that the pilots will let management know that we aren't happy and then all we can do is see if they listen. If management continues to make these kind of decision, you will see a push for a union on property. I will tell you that the union has done squat for me and my furloughed brothers so I am not crazy about going that route.

 

[lowecur]

G4g5

I believe that you hit the nail on the head. Now I'm pretty smart when it serves your purposes. AMR will no doubt enter the 190 game. It's quite clear that they need a replacement for the Foker (That's Gay Foker). By this time next year AMR will only have 30 CRJ700's, that's only 30 aircraft to fill the gap between 50 and 119 seats.

Dave and his boy's in an effort to be CHEAP may have just put the nail in their coffin. The rates they have established will no doubt set the presedence for the industry. When Arpey comes calling to Hunter he will get the pay rates he wants. For those of you who don't know, Hunter is the new APA President that has already signaled that he is willing to cave in on the 190 and the pay rates. Just ask any AA pilot. If Hunnibel had been elected I would feel different but he was not and Hunter was. The bottom line is someone at AA will be willing to fly the 190 for those rates, (the same thing will no doubt happen at DAL).

AMR mgt is licking their chops at the very thought of being able to fly coast to coast in a 190 at the Jet Blue rates. According to Skirt, the 190 will only have a practical range of 1700 nm. Consider this the 190 holds 115 seats. The 190 holds a max of 108, the 195 with a lesser range holds that many. AMR MD80's hold 119 seats. AMR has approx 325 MD80's. Can anyone else think of a better replacement? I can't. How many additional aircraft will be needed to fill the void created by the retirement of the 74-F100's? See my point Dave has just invited a whirlwind of competition in the 190 market with those rates. If he had set them at $5-10 dollars below current market 717, DC9, MD80 rates he would have been able to flood the market with the 190's and no one woul have cared. These rates will make the majors stand up and take notice.

AMR is in a far better position the Jetblue to get the 190's at sub par rates. Don't kid yourself. If DL, AMR, and WN are going to make large orders, the first one in the door will have the advantage, and it won't be at give-away prices. Mfg slots are limited. Sure Dave can jump and down and say he got them for cheaper. The reality is Embraer knows where their bread is buttered. How long has AMR been purchasing Embraer products? When Embraer's largest customer comes calling with a 300-400 aircraft order(I think COEX is their largest customer), economies of scale will dictate that AMR gets the best price. FYI the last time I checked AMR had over $3.5 BILLION in cash.

The reality is that AMR could have done this with the 717 but they would have had to pay the current contract 717 wages. Their are no contract pay rates for the 190. Which means they have to be negotiated. Dave has just set the pay rate so low that when Arpey sits down with the APA, what leg do they have to stand on?

This will also be an easy sell to the current pilots. It will never effect them. Anyone know how many AA pilots retire within the next 10 years? Over 3,500!!
Approximatly the same number of MD80 pilots that AMR has. Arpey can eaisly sell it to the union. He can replace the MD80's with 190's at the same rate of pilot retirements. The current MD80 pilots will fill the void creatd by the retiring pilots, never having to fly the 190. The furloughed pilots get recalled into the 190. Arpey can get preff bidding whatever he wants. In exchange for a slight pay raise on the larger equipment. The money saved by replacing the MD80 pay rates with Jetblue 190 pay rates will eaisly cover this. This will pass with little objection because the current AA pilots will never be effected by this, they will still move up and get a raise. The 3500 retiring will no doubt want 2500+ dues payers back on the real estate. They will also be happy to be getting a pay raise.

That' what I ment about the nail in the coffin. The 800 pound guerilla has just been invited to the dance. Sooooo......do you think you'll enjoy the 190 at $85 per hour?

 

[TonyC]

Tony:

Let me first say that I find it somewhat remarkable that you feel the need to parse the words of any jetBlue pilot with regard to how he/she may describe their professional working relationship with their fellow pilots and/or jetBlue management. Tell me is that really the issue for you or do you have some other ax to grind here. I could almost understand if you were a pilot for AA, UAL, or DAL.....but FedEx.....please!

My issue is that you can be in the same bed with management when things are going smoothly, and quick to divorce yourselves from them when things aren't so rosy. How much simpler can I state it?

Please tell me... what does my employemnt with FedEx have to do with anything? Why, or how would being an AA, UAL, or DAL pilot make my comments or opinions any more legitimate?

Anyway, your example of the B707 is at best a poor example wrt to the issue here at hand. But does speak volumes about the mindset you have regarding how you view this profession through the prism created by the Civil Aeronautics Board which died over a generation ago.

First, the example you're trying to square this issue with occurred during a time when this industry was highly regulated and airfares were controlled by the CAB, not by free-market forces in a deregulated industry like we have today. This meant that pilot unions could negotiate "productivity" increases in hourly rates with a much larger and faster aircraft and all management had to do was get the CAB to bump up airfares in controlled (i.e., limited competition) markets to recover any extra cost increases, if necessary. The margin between costs and yields remained largely intact by all airlines affected by such pilot actions. This led to the birth of pattern-style bargaining tactics which served both sides in a regulated environment.

Once again, today's industry bears virtually no resemblance to your example.

I suppose you're right. Today's industry bears NO resemblance to the productivity example I cited. We all know that JetBlue will make no more profit on a EMB-190 than they would from a 70-seat or 50-seat... hey, even no more than a 12-seat airplane, so you should expect to get paid no more than a King Air pilot.

In your model of reality, all the profits go to the company, and pilots should be grateful they have health insurance.

If the two unionized pilot groups representing the two largest airlines in the world couldn't stop the major reductions in their hourly rates and work rules, how can you seriously believe that jetBlue is going to do anything materially different? Despite this fact I have yet to see the same level of collective frustration aimed at AA & UAL pilots as I've witnessed on these boards against jetblue pilots. Tony, this is why I find your comments not only out of order but extremely disingenuous.

I find it interesting that the word collective would come up in this discussion, used by you, because you must understand something of the gravity of the word. Without the collective bargaining arrangements in place at American and United, the damage to the pilots' plot would most certainly have been far more severe. Without the power of collective bargaining, Delta pilots would not be enjoying pre-9/11 pay rates. They would have had rates IMPOSED on them like the rest of the Delta employee groups. Did the higher pilot pay rates spell the immediate demise of Delta? Certainly not.

What you lack at JetBlue is a collective voice for the pilots, and that's a shame. You've been warned that once the honeymoon's over, you'll want a collective voice. (Not my words, but I share the sentiment.) It has been alluded to very recently that the honeymoon is over. (Again, not my words... and I doubt it's over, but I think you can see the end from here.) When it comes to that point where you all realize you want a collective voice (and I'm sure it will get to that point eventually) I PROMISE you will regret not having done it sooner.

Bottom-line: Going forward pilots will not be paid based on the old ways of defining productivity under the methods used during the heydays of a regulated industry, but based on what an airline can earn based on the difference between revenues and costs....

If you think there is no difference between the "revenues and costs" of an EMB-190 and a 50-70-seat jet, then you should be happy with the published rates. I don't think you do, and I don't think you are. Even by your own model, these rates don't measure up.

Finally, while you want to create a theorhetical mutually-exclusive environment between the goals of managers and pilots in how we should be compensated, I see the situation as it exists at jetBlue where both sides can be mutually satisfied, but only if cooler heads prevail and jetBlue pilots stay focused on what's relevant.

What's important is not what you think we should do in this instance, but what we as jetBlue pilots will do armed with all the information needed to make an informed and carefully considered decision on what will first be best for us, our company, and if possible what is good for this profession. JetBlue is too young and too small to act as your sole vehicle for fixing single-handedly what ails this profession. So please spare us your disdain for how we employ the use of the words "WE" and "THEY."

As long as you hold on to the model of "both sides [being] mutually satisfied," you continue to make my point, which all along has been that you are equally to blame for the dismal pay rates published. You can't step back and point the finger of blame at management so long as this mentality prevails.

 

[iflynights]

Tony,

After reading your posts on the joy of unionization, again, I think you don't seem to understand what is happening at the airlines. We aren't fedex.

At my last airline (where I am furloughed) they are about to take massive pay cuts and change productivity rules (work harder). Not too much the union is doing to prevent this from happening. They are also looking into making a deal with management where mainline pilots fly 70 seat aircraft, but guess what, at market rates (yeah, regional pilot rates).

Did the unions save US Airways pensions or jobs? What about collective bargaining there??

In short, the passenger industry has changed. Lower revenues, lower costs. If you can't get your costs low enough, you lose money.

My union tells their pilots that is OK to fly overtime while pilots are furloughed. Where's the love?

We don't have all of the protections that a union provides. So far we haven't needed them. Maybe we will soon, who knows? But I will say that the union sure hasn't done anything for me but take money out of my check each month.

 

[lowecur]

How many current US airlines have NO union representaion? Care to change that comment?

I have vascillated on the union deal at Jetblue. I stated if history is to repeat itself, there will probably be a union. However, upon reading some responces from B6 employees, the 5 year contract review may hinder the formation of a union for some time. I think B6 employees for the most part are going to see how this plays out before rallying around an unfurrelled flag.

 

[TonyC]

If the two unionized pilot groups representing the two largest airlines in the world couldn't stop the major reductions in their hourly rates and work rules, how can you seriously believe that jetBlue is going to do anything materially different? Despite this fact I have yet to see the same level of collective frustration aimed at AA & UAL pilots as I've witnessed on these boards against jetblue pilots. Tony, this is why I find your comments not only out of order but extremely disingenuous.

I chose to address this charge separately, because I don't want it to get lost in the length of another post.

You have some serious problems if you can honestly say you compare your situation at JetBlue with the situations at American or United.

Both of these airlines faced destruction - - not profit and growth.

American pilots had a voice - - and they used it.

United pilots had a voice - - it was taken away by bankruptcy courts.

JetBlue pilots have no voice, and apparently don't want one.


What you find about my comments is certainly irrelevant to the future of JetBlue pilots. The collective frustration you see aimed in your direction from pilots across the country - - many certainly wiser and more experienced than I - - focuses on your rejection of the idea of a collective voice for pilots.



I personally assume repsonsibility for the criticism I'll receive for articulating this position, but I can assure you I am not alone in the sentiment. I think I've said about all I need to on the subject. Unless you'd like clarification of my views, I'll let y'all do the rest of the talking.