Jetblue and Vueling

[kaisersose]

I don't have a horse in this race and have been po'd at alpa more than happy as of late. This is, however, the kind of situation where it is nice to have them so there is recourse other than wondering what is going on. I am not proposing that you organize but it is advantageous to have at least a small say when you start hearing stuff like this. It may be nothing at all or it may be a way to back stab you out of some lucrative flying. Good luck and I hope for everyones sake it is just a cultural exchange so sexy stews can share their techniques.

 

[Dizel8]

Diesel-

You got yours eh?

Yeah, thats it, you are good!

What should we be learning from a brand new carrier that touts the fact that the carrier has highly experienced pilots with 2000+ hours?

What could the major carriers ever have learned from a small 737 startup in TX? As for the 2000+ hours, I would think most of jetblues pilots have 2000+ hours, however, it does not state if they have 10000 or 100K, you make the assumption that all they have 2001 hrs. More than likely, that bit was written by a secretary, who thinks 2000 is a lot, besides, tell me again how many pilots are coming over here? If my reading comprehension is up to par, it looks like zero, nada, none!

As for your forest, not sure what exactly what you see, but unless you have some secret inside info, I can see nothing that smells funny or that should give you cause for concern. But hey, it you want to assume, postulate and brew up conspiracies, by all means, go right ahead.

 

[bluejuice787]

kaisersose, I can barely say that name without shaking...

Seriously though, I would simply just like to be informed.

 

[bluejuice787]

Yeah, thats it, you are good!



What could the major carriers ever have learned from a small 737 startup in TX? As for the 2000+ hours, I would think most of jetblues pilots have 2000+ hours, however, it does not state if they have 10000 or 100K, you make the assumption that all they have 2001 hrs. More than likely, that bit was written by a secretary, who thinks 2000 is a lot, besides, tell me again how many pilots are coming over here? If my reading comprehension is up to par, it looks like zero, nada, none!

As for your forest, not sure what exactly what you see, but unless you have some secret inside info, I can see nothing that smells funny or that should give you cause for concern. But hey, it you want to assume, postulate and brew up conspiracies, by all means, go right ahead.

Is that not what these boards are for? If not, why are you here? Too often we are told not to use our "spider senses"...mostly by lawyers and such who take advantage of the subjective. I have no problem with speculation on a info board. I believe it was the British that first told the "militia" to "shut up and color"...

 

[Dizel8]

Wait a second, UAL news colours looks like jetblues and luvs new colour is Canyon Blue, plus they have a texas flag a/c and jetblue is going to Austin. Couple that with the fact that we install live TV for WestJet, Frontier and not to forget Virgin Blue, which was started Branson, who is friends with Neeleman and Branson is setting up a space port in NM. Could he be intending to link them all together, by flying intergalactic, flying which should be done by jetblue pilots, only to lose out to the Vueling pilots?

Oh my god, better call Duane right now!

 

[Dizel8]

I have no problem with speculation on a info board.

Nor do I, see above post, but to weave what info there is, into jetblue pilots getting screwed out of 330 Europe flying is a bit of a stretch. JMHO

 

[wood pecker]

Good conspiracy theory floating is that the purpose of the 5 year interview is to see if you will be qualified for both airlines. This statement is completely flame bait natured but is floating around and not supported by any one who knows any one.

 

[bluejuice787]

Nor do I, see above post, but to weave what info there is, into jetblue pilots getting screwed out of 330 Europe flying is a bit of a stretch. JMHO

Perhaps it is but I believe it is OK to ask and even better to be informed honestly by our company.

My sense tells me there is more to this than they are saying. It is certainly their (Dave and David) right to do so, however, it is not common for them to do so...this is the reason I am posting in the first place.

 

[kaisersose]

kaisersose, I can barely say that name without shaking...

Seriously though, I would simply just like to be informed.

Lately they make me shake in anger and frustration more than not. However, they are who I'd be yelling at right now for some info. Heck, we have Copa to deal with in Central and South America. Alpa did not make that situation go away but who knows how bad it could be without a voice? Maybe they would be doing all our south flying now. Your mgt. in the future might be open and inform you on their plans but what if those plans really suck? Again, I hope it is nothing and hope you guys can get everything you want without having to shell out a couple thousand a year. Most times I think it is just an expensive magazine but other times it is nice to know it is there when you need it.

 

[Dizel8]

Perhaps it is but I believe it is OK to ask and even better to be informed honestly by our company.

My sense tells me there is more to this than they are saying. It is certainly their (Dave and David) right to do so, however, it is not common for them to do so...this is the reason I am posting in the first place.

Why don't you ask them?

Okay, I'll play. If Vueling bought some 330s and we ended up codesharing with them, would you feel cheated, would you feel that it was flying that "belonged" to you? How about if we signed a codeshare with Virgin Atlantic, BA or Iceland Air, would you feel the same?

As long as no jetblue airplane is flown by other than jetblue pilots, who is compensated according to our contract and on the seniority list, then I really don't have a problem.

 

[Neil Eubich]

Why don't you ask them?

Okay, I'll play. If Vueling bought some 330s and we ended up codesharing with them, would you feel cheated, would you feel that it was flying that "belonged" to you? How about if we signed a codeshare with Virgin Atlantic, BA or Iceland Air, would you feel the same?

Okay, I'll play too......I would feel much worse if we code-shared with Vueling and we weren't the guys flying the 330s because Dave is on the board with them. As far as I know, he's not on the board of directors with VA, BA or IA.....D Barger, if this were to happen, would have a great opportunity to help his pilots out (Jetblue) by expanding our routes, planes and increasing our compensation....now business-wise, it makes more sense for them to farm out the 330s to the cheapest pilots, you know, the guys with the huge amount of flying experience (>2000hrs) uke:

 

[bluejuice787]

Why don't you ask them?

Okay, I'll play. If Vueling bought some 330s and we ended up codesharing with them, would you feel cheated, would you feel that it was flying that "belonged" to you? How about if we signed a codeshare with Virgin Atlantic, BA or Iceland Air, would you feel the same?

As long as no jetblue airplane is flown by other than jetblue pilots, who is compensated according to our contract and on the seniority list, then I really don't have a problem.

OK, this is a stretch...what if it was intended all along to grow JB into a world carrier but with "open skies" it is determined to be much more cost effective to use Euro crews?

 

[bluejuice787]

Okay, I'll play too......I would feel much worse if we code-shared with Vueling and we weren't the guys flying the 330s because Dave is on the board with them. As far as I know, he's not on the board of directors with VA, BA or IA.....D Barger, if this were to happen, would have a great opportunity to help his pilots out (Jetblue) by expanding our routes, planes and increasing our compensation....now business-wise, it makes more sense for them to farm out the 330s to the cheapest pilots, you know, the guys with the huge amount of flying experience (>2000hrs) uke:

Dave Barger is on the Board of Directors at Vueling. He is also the President of JB. He also owns 7% of Vueling.

 

[Neil Eubich]

Dave Barger is on the Board of Directors at Vueling. He is also the President of JB. He also owns 7% of Vueling.

That's my point.....he's personnally invested in both companies........not so with Virgin or the others......that's why I would hope that with his greater interest in jetBlue and a smaller investment in Vueling that he'd help both companies out, but would want the transatlantic crossings to be controlled by jetBlue......that's what I'd love to have happen...but if he can get a Euro to fly the 330 for $150/hr who do you think he's going to eventually fly that thing?

 

[Dizel8]

OK, this is a stretch...what if it was intended all along to grow JB into a world carrier but with "open skies" it is determined to be much more cost effective to use Euro crews?

As long as it does not say jetblue on the side and it does not affect our airplane deliveries,growth, seniority, pay and pilot hiring, then I don't really care.

 

[Neil Eubich]

As long as it does not say jetblue on the side and it does not affect our airplane deliveries,growth, seniority, pay and pilot hiring, then I don't really care.

Yeah but Dizel....if there was an opportunity for jetblue or vueling to fly the 330 overseas you're telling me that you wouldn't care if they got that gig and not you?

 

[shadesofBS]

Fine, if this is all just speculation and paranoia then I would ask this:
Why are they spending MORE of my profit sharing money on a "Cultural Exchange" program. Would it be impertinent to ask what this all costs?
Can we really expect to see a return on this investment?
No.
Just like there won't be a return on $100 million worth of HUD's, auxiliary fuel tanks, and 50 or so management pilots making $150,000 a year.
Loads of return when you cut healthcare though.

 

[a320drivr]

you hit the nail on the head.

 

[da90drivr]

How did a Flight Attendant exchange program turn into a debate over who is going to fly A330's (which neither company owns or flys)? Maybe it both companies can learn from each other.

Dave Barger has a 7percent stake in the airline, good for him. Perhaps he is trying to make a little more money in this industry.

As for the 2000 hour pilots, very different training program and process as well as the other factors mentioned by the othe posters.

 

[roughneck]

when you go to the above mentioned link...check out the tab "our philosophy" and scroll down to pilot experience. WTF!

Sounds like the mins that JB will have soon for its RJ's. Can't pay pennies and get loads of experience.

 

[shadesofBS]

How did a Flight Attendant exchange program turn into a debate over who is going to fly A330's (which neither company owns or flys)? Maybe it both companies can learn from each other.

Dave Barger has a 7percent stake in the airline, good for him. Perhaps he is trying to make a little more money in this industry.

As for the 2000 hour pilots, very different training program and process as well as the other factors mentioned by the othe posters.

Because many of us have been whip-sawed to death in our careers and we don't care to have it happen again. Airbus 330's are the least of our worries if we end up with an alter-ego and the foreign ownership rules get thrown out by a Republican congress. After that you'll see a whole new round of "whose the lowest bidder."
...and please spare me the whole "trust in leadership" speech because I've heard it all before and the only place I've ever seen it play out is Southwest.
We may be the benificiaries of the same type of leadership but the vibe I've been getting at recurrent does not give me a warm and fuzzy.

 

[da90drivr]

Because many of us have been whip-sawed to death in our careers and we don't care to have it happen again. Airbus 330's are the least of our worries if we end up with an alter-ego and the foreign ownership rules get thrown out by a Republican congress. After that you'll see a whole new round of "whose the lowest bidder."
...and please spare me the whole "trust in leadership" speech because I've heard it all before and the only place I've ever seen it play out is Southwest.
We may be the benificiaries of the same type of leadership but the vibe I've been getting at recurrent does not give me a warm and fuzzy.

Ok, I'm curious now, what vibe have you been getting at recurrent?

 

[shadesofBS]

The vibe has been:
"pay and benefits are what they are, 190 pay is what it is, if you all decide you want to do something collectively about then that's your perogative."
and
"pilots who don't answer their phones and pilots who call in sick are the reason we have so many irops"
I won't provide names and exact quotes on this forum but I don't have to. There were 50 or 60 other pilots in the room each time I heard things of this nature and I'm not out to convince anyone of anything. Pilots are pretty observant people with very good memories.

 

[That Guy]

Just like there won't be a return on $100 million worth of HUD's, auxiliary fuel tanks, and 50 or so management pilots making $150,000 a year.

I have no idea what the deal is with management pilots, but I would think that they are necessary. From where I come from, they are a necessary evil, but necessary. Is $150,000 more than most A320 captains make in a year?

HUD's allow you guys to turn CAT I approaches into CAT II or III approaches, don't they? I know it's a huge additional cost, but when you guys are going places the competition can't go, there's a lot to be said for that. No CAT II or III equipment on the field...no problem. You Blue Dudes can cruise in there while other 121 operators can't even attempt the approach. Plus, once you've flown with a HUD, well...it's like crack for pilots.

I don't know about aux fuel tanks, but again, I would think that might open up tankering possibilities if fuel prices get out of hand again, and like they say, you can never have enough gas - unless you're on fire.

Of course, I could be way off base here, the HUD and aux fuel tanks, while difficult to justify in the short term, may have a huge effect on productivity and completion factor in the long run.

Of course, as an outsider, I could be talking completely out of my @$$, but I found it very interesting when I heard JetBlue was ordering those options on the E190.

Flame me if I deserve it.

 

[bluejuice787]

I have no idea what the deal is with management pilots, but I would think that they are necessary. From where I come from, they are a necessary evil, but necessary. Is $150,000 more than most A320 captains make in a year?

HUD's allow you guys to turn CAT I approaches into CAT II or III approaches, don't they? I know it's a huge additional cost, but when you guys are going places the competition can't go, there's a lot to be said for that. No CAT II or III equipment on the field...no problem. You Blue Dudes can cruise in there while other 121 operators can't even attempt the approach. Plus, once you've flown with a HUD, well...it's like crack for pilots.

I don't know about aux fuel tanks, but again, I would think that might open up tankering possibilities if fuel prices get out of hand again, and like they say, you can never have enough gas - unless you're on fire.

Of course, I could be way off base here, the HUD and aux fuel tanks, while difficult to justify in the short term, may have a huge effect on productivity and completion factor in the long run.

Of course, as an outsider, I could be talking completely out of my @$$, but I found it very interesting when I heard JetBlue was ordering those options on the E190.

Flame me if I deserve it.

Not sure about the mgmt pilot thing. I believe they pretty much earn their keep here...no real opinion on that topic.

HUDs...I'll admit I have never used one. I have been told that they are great. My concern is not if they work as published and are fun to use, it is simply are they cost effective. In other words are we really going to be able to go that many more places many more times than the competition? Is there any imperical evidence that suggests this? I would think to offset the cost it would have to be great...I don't know but I doubt it.

Aux fuel tanks...simply a mistake and we are correcting it.

 

[Counselair]

Why don't you ask them?

As long as no jetblue airplane is flown by other than jetblue pilots, who is compensated according to our contract and on the seniority list, then I really don't have a problem.

Not to start a tiff but how about Lonnie, (in the not too distant future Pete) and Billy W. to name a few... Europe to the US and Places down south.

C

 

[JBPA]

Not to start a tiff but how about Lonnie, (in the not too distant future Pete) and Billy W. to name a few... Europe to the US and Places down south.

C

I think you meant Lanny M. I think it's BS. We're going to start the mil charter soon (Guantanamo among other places) and I heard that those missions were going to be 'operationally assigned' and not for bid. Before the diehard Bluefolk dogpile me that's just what I heard.

 

[Dizel8]

Counselair,

check your pm.

D8

 

[8vATE]

Not to start a tiff but how about Lonnie, (in the not too distant future Pete) and Billy W. to name a few... Europe to the US and Places down south.

C

Wow..

this is a blast from the past..
Resurrected thread.


These flights are not "revenue" flights and are frequently "acceptance/test flights" requiring specially qualified pilots.

Its not unprecedented to have them flown by non seniority list pilots.
It probably a good tradeoff... Allowing our 60+ year old guys a job.

As far as the DOD charters... they should be open to the pilot group.
I would imagine though there is some concern about the special procedures flying in and out of G. Bay.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Wow..

this is a blast from the past..
Resurrected thread.


These flights are not "revenue" flights and are frequently "acceptance/test flights" requiring specially qualified pilots.

Its not unprecedented to have them flown by non seniority list pilots.
It probably a good tradeoff... Allowing our 60+ year old guys a job.

As far as the DOD charters... they should be open to the pilot group.
I would imagine though there is some concern about the special procedures flying in and out of G. Bay.

Those delivery flights are jetblue airways operations and should be flown by pilots on the JB sen list. We have many pilots on the sen list with much more AB experience than the retired guys. But it's not about experience, it's about being in the "Club". The money payed to those guys is just a perk that costs the line pilots, the profit-sharers, and shareholders. Besides, aren't all those guys doing the "extra" flying the ones with the $1 options?
If they are so experienced, make them instructors. At least one is a highly experienced and respected sim instructor.
As for those charters, you watch who gets those...
Those "special procedures" are no big deal, I've been there.