JetBlue and the Industry

[sbav8r]

Since I am 1 of 2 pilots in my operation, I can't speak from experience when discussing unions; however, I am familiar with thier history in aviation from texts such as "Flying the Line." I would hate to see what airline life would be like had it not been for thier influence.

Assuming no union:

Would you require certain hour or expereince requirements to enter 121 operations?

Would the FAA regulate these, or your organization?

What do you think the requirements should be?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

What I suggest is that we form an organization that works with the FAA to regulate who becomes an ATP in the interest of safety and saturation. This does not harm the airlines in the long run as it levels the paying field and allows pilots from all carriers to sustain their place in the industry after furloughs and bankruptcies. If we eliminate non-collegiate 141 schools where any swinging Richard can get his ATP and take your spot or FBO to Captain Schools intended originally for private pilots we are headed in the right direction.


What do you think?

Quite frankly I think you're terminally clueless.

You suggest an organization to regulate who becomes an ATP "in the interest of safety and saturation."

You go on to suggest eliminating non-collegiate Part 141 schools. Where the frick is the connection between safety and eliminating those schools? I've flown with graduates of collegiate and non-collegiate 141 programs as well as pilots from many other backgrounds. I've even flown with many of those pilots from the FBO's that you seem to fear. From what I've seen I don't think choosing any one particular civilian track combined with ex-military is going to achieve a greater level of safety in the industry. I would support higher standards including but not limited to a more realistic set of PTS, improved standardization amongst DE's, and a more challenging written test.

Before you spout off with these insinuations I'd suggest you do some research to see if there are any relevant statistics to back up your assumptions.

WN has an admirable safety record in terms of hull losses and no fatalities. Unlike other major airlines they seem to hire pilots from a broad mix of backgrounds including other 121, 135, 91 and military. To an extent I think your employer does as well. Do you feel that B6 or WN is less safe than DAL or FedEx which have hiring practices you would presumably be more inclined to support?

What you're proposing is to decrease the pool of available pilots by making sure only those with large bank accounts, or more likely, rich parents are able to get an ATP. Give me a break. You want to set up an economic barrier to those entering the profession. Why don't you just come out and advocate reinstituting PFT? That was an effective economic barrier that kept many of us away from the industry for a few years.

 

[New Plan]

Dave,

Could you not simply say I don't agree? Do you really think I am terminally cluless? Why all the hostility on this board? I am amused bad a$$ attitude. [/I]I dont agree with what you say so I am going to be an infant and rip you...BTW I am behind this internet thing so nah nah nah nah.

I am not suggesting that anyone is not good enough. I am not saying going to school is better than not. I am not after your job, your integrity, you dog or anything else. I am simply trying to look at an idea that might forward our career by limiting numbers entering. I am certainly not in favor of creating a country club enviroment that allows only the rich or priviledged to prevail. Do you think medical school is only for the rich?

My wife (an MD) came from a single parent family whos' mother was a secretary. She certainly made it. I however was extremely priviledged because I am one of ten kids. My father was a factory worker for Whirlpool for 40 years and never finished the eigth grade.

I suggest you think before rip you jacka$$.

 

[Dizel8]

"I am simply trying to look at an idea that might forward our career by limiting numbers entering. I am certainly not in favor of creating a country club enviroment that allows only the rich or priviledged to prevail."

Well, what will discern who gets to enter and who will not?

In a country that prides itself with Living the Dream, we now want to deny that dream to someone because........? When your son or daughter raises eyes to the sky, as the 747 passes overhead, with that unmistakleable glint in his eye, what will you say? "Sorry my child, you cannot enter that society"!

While I sense your idea, I just cannot see how it would work!

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I however was extremely priviledged because I am one of ten kids. My father was a factory worker for Whirlpool for 40 years and never finished the eigth grade.

I suggest you think before rip you jacka$$.

And now you'd like to prevent somone from similar circumstances from following in your footsteps. You sir are the jacka$$.

I noticed you couldn't come up with any response whatsoever to my questions regarding the questions of safety being connected to non collegiate certification tracks. I guess you know it's a totally false assertion. Why don't you own up to this by admitting it's total BS?

You are quite disingenuous. All you want to do is limit the number of applicants by creating financial barriers to entry. Please don't couch your plan in terms of promoting safety. That's all I ask.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

What seems to work well is the concept of the American Medical Association. The AMA works by regulating the entrants into medical school and sets the standard for students while in school. This is done while working with the federal government to insure safety and compliance.

New Plan ... You and I have diametrically opposed views of the AMA. The AMA is the single greatest roadblock to aviation style safety reform in the medical field. Have you ever wondered why our nation's doctors kill over 200,000 people each year due to preventable and repeated medical errors ... not poor outcomes ... we're talking ERRORS ... errors that have been made repeatedly by other doctors at other hospitals for decades. Why is it the medical profession doesn't investigate these repeated blunders (except at a local level) and learn from them nationally?

As an example ... Nurse confuses drip lines late at night and baby dies at hospital A because he's injected with alcohol. The doctor investigating this error on behalf of hospital A discovers this error has repeatedly occurred at numerous hospitals resulting in numerous deaths over a 40 year period. Upon further investigation, this doctor discovers that after multiple deaths hospital B decided to add a purple dye to alcohol (no bodily fluid is naturally purple) ... bam ... no more deaths from this error ever again! Why did this information and its solution not get transmitted nationwide decades ago saving all those lives? (like aviation safety) ...

I am opposed to tort reform in medicine for this very reason. Without law suits and substantial verdicts holding incompetent MD's accountable, and with their current track record of not disciplining their incompetent own, the AMA is like the Catholic church ... both have turned a blind eye knowing more will be harmed by their inaction ... but definitely in denial as to their culpability.

So ... if the whole model for your overhaul is based on the AMA, I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

BBB

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Furthermore this "plan" would have a tragic effect on FBO's and 141 schools that currently employ thousands of people. Great thinking. More people out of work and business owners investments wiped out.

It's easy to recognize greed and selfishness from quite a distance, isn't it?

 

[New Plan]

Dave, D8, Beer Belly-

Is this forum your way of taking out your agression? Is this how you treat your fellow man? The moment you disagree with any part of an idea you attack. I think if you all slowly re-read my posts you will find someone with altruistic motives.

What are any of you suggesting we do? I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am and have no desire to deny anyone that priveledge. I am ashamed of you guys. I have a great care and concern for my fellow pilots and those aspiring that ironically is why I posted in the first place.

If you are pissed off by your lot in life take it out in the gym. This forum was meant for meaningful dialogue. Not attack the moment you hear something you dont like. I post so that I too may learn...not in an effort to pontificate about BS.

 

[Dizel8]

Easy big fella, no need to get upset.

You wanted a discussion and you got one. Now because the thinking is different from yours, you perceive it as an attack? I reread my post and still fail to see how I was taking my "aggresion" or acting out "my lot" in life,which, BTW, I am rather enjoying,on you

Further I fail to see how say BBB is taking his aggressions out on you, he simply pointed out what he found to be wrong with your idea.

"I post so that I too may learn..." But you do not want to hear it when someone disagrees?

Now chill and make a more compelling argument, on why your idea might work!

P.S. Stay away from the "ugly" religous threads and any thread run by 100LL, you won't like it

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave, D8, Beer Belly-

Is this forum your way of taking out your agression?

No.

But I am still waiting on you to either clarify or retract your pontification on how collegiate 141 programs produce safer pilots than those from other career tracks.

You have a way of dodging questions which is rather annoying.

Either back up your claim or admit it's BS. Your "low credibility light" is illuminated and noone can cancel the alarm except you.

I anxiously await your admission of being full of $hit.

 

[Dizel8]

"If we eliminate non-collegiate 141 schools where any swinging Richard can get his ATP and take your spot or FBO to Captain Schools intended originally for private pilots we are headed in the right direction."

Think about it New Plan, with comments like: "swinging Richard", how many people you have just pointed fingers at? Well, just about anyone who did not go to a collegiate school or even, though you probably did not intend to exclude them, the military pilots. Whatever your intent was, you have said that anyone who did not go the "chosen" route are not suitable.

Further you say, that you do not want to exclude those currently in the business, but from now on, "this" is the route one has to take. Well, I suppose I should be estatic that I am allowed to stay, but your rhetoric probably will not sit well with many.

Certainly many question has been asked of you, and you may perhaps be able to answer them or at least some, but, as I said earlier, unless you can make a compelling argument as to why your idea is the way to go, you will not make much headway.

P.S. The best darn pilot I ever saw, was a crop duster!

 

[B6Guy]

Sorry New Plan, but I can't agree

This thread pulled me out of the woods to stop lurking and finally register and post.

New Plan, I understand your desire to somehow correct the apparent glut of pilots vs the few piloting jobs available. Especially since this would only bring along pay increases and QOL improvements. But unfortunatly I can't see it working at all. Most of the glut of pilots is not from over production from flight schools, but from massive layoffs from tragically mismanaged companies that can't rewrite their business model to fit with the current business environment.

Any attempt to control or regulate access to an ATP rating would create the Fraternaty of all Frats. I can see parents petitioning their Congressmen to write a letter of recommendation for their children to get in. It would truely be the worst of the haves and have-nots.

And to be honest It wouldn't provide a better, safer pilot either. I've flown with guys who have come up through the School-of-Hard-Knocks and with many guys who have graduated from our military schools too. Some of the guys are lost, clueless, dangerous even, and others with the same apparent background are talented, sharp, and a credit to our profession. What this means to me is that regardless of the schooling, or background some are better than others. Thankfully the cream usually floats to the top. Only ocasionally does a real stinker make it through the system without being culled from the group.

This culling from the group currently comes from within, guys who are known to be unpleasant to fly with, or dangerous are usually pointed out as such and not hired. Unfortunatly a few still get through. My point is that most make through the schooling part and have to be culled by the industry. So I don't see any form of policing at the school level working at all.

The big problem with the industry is as we all know is too much capacity and low seat prices. The internet allows virtually instant price comparrison and those passengers with little brand loyalty will fly on anyone who's ticket price is $5 less than the others. Sad but true.

I see every flight as a sales promotion on every customer to come back and fly on us again. I make every attempt to 'warm-up' my crew and have a pep talk prior to each flight. We have to prove ourselves each time we fly. If we get to be just another airline, then we will fall into the pool of mediocrity.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

"I'm a Doctor Jim, not a pilot"....

Strange, no matter the topic presented, it is always twisted and contorted into a "military v. civilian" eye-poking festival.
I wonder if military guys are just that arrogant or civilian guys just have that big a chip on their shoulder. I know that's a real broad stroke of the brush. Just strikes me as odd.

....I thought we were going to make this a "pilot vs. doctor" thread?!

They have hot nurses, we have hot F/As.

They get free KY and we get none. Okay, 1 point for them.

We get all the free sodas and water (sorry UAL) and they have to contribute to the coffee fund. 1 point for us.

They deal with medical waste and bodily fluids, We walk in glycol and Jet A.....I say that's a point for us.

I've never had to check a passenger for colon cancer or asked them to turn their head and cough. Definitely a point for us.

 

[Dizel8]

"asked them to turn their head and cough."

Now don't give the TSA any ideas, they already got the gloves!

 

[8vATE]

Baylou,My wife is an MD and she will be the first to point out that medical school need not be four years long or even something beyond undergraduate. Perhaps 5 or 6 years total. If we make a program that treats getting all your ratings as a degree and then instructing and charter as some form of residency then I think we are going in the right direction...The same could be done for the military.

So why are you flying airplanes for a living??



Stay at home and raise the kids...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

I think I'll stay with my Flight Surgeon...

"asked them to turn their head and cough."

Now don't give the TSA any ideas, they already got the gloves!

Dr. Kutchyercockoff, from the form USSR!

 

[SoCentralRain]

What I suggest is that we form an organization that works with the FAA to regulate who becomes an ATP in the interest of safety and saturation.

Remember that, according to FAR 61.153 c., in order to qualify for the Airline Transport Pilot certificate...the applicant must "be of good moral character."

Apparently, each one of us that holds an ATP are pretty much in line for sainthood.

Oh, except for the avarice and vitriol.

Something to think about. ::shrug::

 

[climbhappy]

New Plan,

I think the idea of regulating the industry vis a vis setting flight hour requirements, part 135 checkouts, and turbine time mins would weed out the PFTs and the barrage of flight academy 20 somethings who will yank gear in an RJ for 19.00/hr. ( sure it goes up to 25 or 30 ...big deal) Get rid of these collegiate interns and and other 500 hour wonders and the laws of supply and demand will kick in. If no one who is qualified will fly them, then they wouldn't be designed and built. I think legacy airlines foresaw the RJ as a way to cut labor costs by creating a platform for jet jockeys to yank gear and aspire to bigger things all for less than minimum wage. This is if you factor in duty time. is it actually like working for free. IF WE REDUCE THE POOL OF 121 APPLICANTS , THEN WAGES WILL GO UP.

the funny thing is the desert will be full of em shortly. too expensive to operate. passenger growth will explode making them obsolete in my stupid ass opinion.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Hey, New Plan...

If you really want to reduce the number of applicants, than we could always go back to the 20/20 vision uncorrected to get hired initially with the airlines, as well as the old unwritten rule of no new-hire over the age of 33.

You probably wear glasses, so I guess you are SOL.

PS: I can still read that bottom line and it's not by memory!

It is better to let market forces and personal desire/commitment work out the numbers by themself.

Staying in the cockpit these days boils down to how much BS a person is willing to put up with to keep flying. Pay, benefits, working conditions, commutability are all getting worse for the majority of the pilots.

 

[CYQQ]

Sorry New Plan but I have to agree with Dave B on this. Your 6 para plan boils down to: "Lets form an organization to artificially restrict the supply of pilots to achieve higher wages. And by the way we will say it is in the interest of safety."

As Dave says, the low credibility light is on.

 

[Dizel8]

Dr. Kutchyercockoff, from the form USSR!

I met his wife, pleasant lady, I think her name was Ivana Beuntop.

 

[Dinger]

PENIS......PENIS, PENIS, PENIS, PENIS!!!! That is such a god am funny word, it makes me laugh......PENIS!

 

[GVEtrucker]

National Hire List

New Plan,

You are on the right track. Limiting our numbers would help, but I believe a total make over of the profession is in order.

Having started over three times in two years, what I think most of us want is a stable fly job with decent benefits and a retirement that isn’t subject to looting by bankruptcy courts. To do this we must separate the profession from the air carriers.

A national seniority list would never fly. No pilot with healthy carrier wants some one coming in on top of him or her. So how about this;

A national right of hire list.

Simply put, if I loss my job at carrier A, I am first on the list to be hired by an airline that is hiring. I would carry my longevity for pay purposes with me, but go to the bottom of the FO/FE list for bidding purposes. (I’d gladly be the bottom F/O at a 12 year pay rate rather than 50 YOA F/O at 1st year pay that I am now.) Insurance and retirement would be handled by a trust that is responsible to the profession and not an individual airline.

We have been conditions to think that the carrier that has hired us is superior to every other carrier that’s out there. The turmoil of the last few years has sobered that line of thought. Now we all are hoping that somebody else will go belly up so our careers may once again prosper. What a pathetic, self-centered line of thought of which I admit guilt.

Keep the brain stoming going.

GVE

 

[Flying Freddie]

As a person who would benefit from most of what you put forth, I say no to all. Pursuit of happiness is what we are guaranteed in the constitution. You ain't guaranteed a job. You have to earn that Bubba. Go ahead and flame me.

 

[MDP727]

You need to pound sand! I'll take a grass strip, grass roots learned to fly person sitting next to me every day of the weeek over a "141 grad".