JetBlue and the Industry

[Newjetjockey]

I gotta agree with New Plan on this one. The main reason Pilots are having this race to the bottom is because there are so many pilots looking for jobs. Right now its so easy for companies to hire they can, and do, pay McDonalds wages to start in the industry. Pilot wages have been tanking over the last few years. The only way to stop the plunge is for the unions to have some bargaining power. The only way to get the bargaining power is to make it harder for the companies to hire. If there are less pilots the companies would have a hard time replacing you. Its simple supply and demand folks.

 

[wndshr]

Maybe that line captain was in his last month of elligibility for a check? Most line checks are accomplished on upstate NY or East Coast turns. Maybe you should look at those stats first before you (READY, FIRE, AIM!!!!). Additionally, the Medical folks have enough problems themselves dealing with the high costs of malpractice lawsuits-- maybe those foot doctors shouldn't be allowed to do plastic surgery!!!! Give me a break, FNG!!!

Wow.....this seems pretty harsh on a NEWHIRE not an FNG...i think it is fair to say that the type of pilots being hired today in this industry are far from FNG's....ironically, they have more heavy a/c and airline experience than some of the captains they fly with! at least at a new carrier like B6! i would be embarrassed to call a newhire an FNG these days....i guess that would make me an IFNG or ignorant FNG!!! LOL

but it was a joke.....riiiiight!

 

[New Plan]

I gotta agree with New Plan on this one. The main reason Pilots are having this race to the bottom is because there are so many pilots looking for jobs. Right now its so easy for companies to hire they can, and do, pay McDonalds wages to start in the industry. Pilot wages have been tanking over the last few years. The only way to stop the plunge is for the unions to have some bargaining power. The only way to get the bargaining power is to make it harder for the companies to hire. If there are less pilots the companies would have a hard time replacing you. Its simple supply and demand folks.

New Jet,

Thanks and I understand where you are comming from, however, I want to point out that I think this need to be independant of unions.

 

[Phaedrus]

>>If there are less pilots the companies would have a hard time replacing you. Its simple supply and demand folks.<<

Supply and demand isn't that simple. What do you restrict on the supply side? There are multitudinous variables. How do you manage the demand side? Lower prices? Raise prices? Offer more incentives? Hire better looking FAs?
So far I've seen a lot of bogie-men on this board, all responsible in one way or the other for the languishing pilot profession: LCCs, too many pilots willing to work for too low wages, a ticket price coddled public, corporate mismanagement, high oil prices, unions, unaffiliated companies, GE Capital, etc, etc.
This is either a cycle and things will improve some day or we've peaked as a profession and the only thing in our future is tell our grandkids about the glory days.
In the meantime we've got each other

 

[Dizel8]

Didn't pertain to thread!

 

[FNG320]

New Plan,
Some intesting comments. Its great to get some new perspectives. As you have noticed. There are some on the boards that are ready to "ready, shoot, aim" anyone who they don't agree with. Its like trying to use logic with a child. It just doesn't work.

Maybe this industry could be redone in the model of the medical community, but I think it is way too late to fix it.

I don't think the current medical training is the greatest model either. Medical school,that is too long, and cost way too much, leaves you with mountains of debt, internship, residency, then finally your own shingle to hang. But don't forget the crappy pay of internship and residiency, plus the 24 shifts, no respect, the cost of medical malpractice insurance, crappy hours and no family life (heh, maybe it is like us....).

But seriously, the AMA in my opinion is more like a FRAT than controlling body. Not to say we don't have the best medical treatment in the world, but all too often we have bad doctors that the AMA won't control. It is an organization that doesn't control its own. Plus I know of no annual, bi-annual, semi-annual recurrency/checkrides to keep doctors on their toes. At least pilots have annual/semi-annual training and checkrides to perform to make sure they can still do the job. Plus there is always the occasional FED that may be watching or jumpseating with you. It may not be perfect, but when the fecce hits the fan, the pilots has to answer to the chief pilot, where the doctor answers to the AMA, if they decide to investigate and then only if they decide to sanction (in that state). A doctor can then go to another state and get a LIC and start again. Pilots can't do that (Feds vs state board)

Both systems are not perfect, but I think ours is better. Right now the economy controls the production of pilots. Cost and the availabity of jobs control us. If people can't get the jobs, then the training will slow down. The problem is that the sine wave of available pilots vs pilots needed is always 180 out. There are never enough (lots of hiring) or too many (lots of furloughs and no/slow hiring). Still you would think there would be some way to take the bumps out of the system (sine wave). Just my thoughts.

Good luck,
FNG

 

[New Plan]

FNG,

I knew I liked you. Thanks for the thoughts and the perspective.

Best,

New Plan

 

[Delville]

I agree with the thrust of New Plan's proposition. Management at most airlines is fully aware that pilots have nonportable skills. Pilots cannot make a lateral move from one company to the next. If they start anew at a different company, they start at the bottom. This is not the case with virtually every other profession. If the company that employs a pilot goes under, then he must start completely over at another company (probation, first year pay, etc). If the company that employs an airline executive goes under, the executive can make a lateral move to another company (in or out of the airline industry) at the same or higher level of compensation and prestige. This dynamic places pilots at a tremendous disadvantage. The saddest part of this situation is that pilots have done this largely to themselves. Until we find a way to begin to rectify this (New Plan has some ideas worth considering in this respect), the downward spiral is likely to continue.

 

[sbav8r]

You stated that the solution needs to be done among the pilots, outside of the unions. Just out of curiousity, why do you feel that unioun representation is not a possible solution?

If all 121 pilots had the same representation then some of the issues could be alleviated. For instance, one master seniority list could make lateral movement possible and control the number of pilots entering the workforce.

 

[New Plan]

SBAV8R,

With all due respect I have lived with unions for a number of years and even participated on several levels and usually wound up dissapointed. In my opinion the existance of a union is in its' self the broad display of dysfunction. As someone recently restated: "any company that has a union deserves it".

Don't get me wrong unions are full of good well intentioned people that have been beat by mgt but that does not make them by virtue healthy.

 

[sbav8r]

Since I am 1 of 2 pilots in my operation, I can't speak from experience when discussing unions; however, I am familiar with thier history in aviation from texts such as "Flying the Line." I would hate to see what airline life would be like had it not been for thier influence.

Assuming no union:

Would you require certain hour or expereince requirements to enter 121 operations?

Would the FAA regulate these, or your organization?

What do you think the requirements should be?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

What I suggest is that we form an organization that works with the FAA to regulate who becomes an ATP in the interest of safety and saturation. This does not harm the airlines in the long run as it levels the paying field and allows pilots from all carriers to sustain their place in the industry after furloughs and bankruptcies. If we eliminate non-collegiate 141 schools where any swinging Richard can get his ATP and take your spot or FBO to Captain Schools intended originally for private pilots we are headed in the right direction.


What do you think?

Quite frankly I think you're terminally clueless.

You suggest an organization to regulate who becomes an ATP "in the interest of safety and saturation."

You go on to suggest eliminating non-collegiate Part 141 schools. Where the frick is the connection between safety and eliminating those schools? I've flown with graduates of collegiate and non-collegiate 141 programs as well as pilots from many other backgrounds. I've even flown with many of those pilots from the FBO's that you seem to fear. From what I've seen I don't think choosing any one particular civilian track combined with ex-military is going to achieve a greater level of safety in the industry. I would support higher standards including but not limited to a more realistic set of PTS, improved standardization amongst DE's, and a more challenging written test.

Before you spout off with these insinuations I'd suggest you do some research to see if there are any relevant statistics to back up your assumptions.

WN has an admirable safety record in terms of hull losses and no fatalities. Unlike other major airlines they seem to hire pilots from a broad mix of backgrounds including other 121, 135, 91 and military. To an extent I think your employer does as well. Do you feel that B6 or WN is less safe than DAL or FedEx which have hiring practices you would presumably be more inclined to support?

What you're proposing is to decrease the pool of available pilots by making sure only those with large bank accounts, or more likely, rich parents are able to get an ATP. Give me a break. You want to set up an economic barrier to those entering the profession. Why don't you just come out and advocate reinstituting PFT? That was an effective economic barrier that kept many of us away from the industry for a few years.

 

[New Plan]

Dave,

Could you not simply say I don't agree? Do you really think I am terminally cluless? Why all the hostility on this board? I am amused bad a$$ attitude. [/I]I dont agree with what you say so I am going to be an infant and rip you...BTW I am behind this internet thing so nah nah nah nah.

I am not suggesting that anyone is not good enough. I am not saying going to school is better than not. I am not after your job, your integrity, you dog or anything else. I am simply trying to look at an idea that might forward our career by limiting numbers entering. I am certainly not in favor of creating a country club enviroment that allows only the rich or priviledged to prevail. Do you think medical school is only for the rich?

My wife (an MD) came from a single parent family whos' mother was a secretary. She certainly made it. I however was extremely priviledged because I am one of ten kids. My father was a factory worker for Whirlpool for 40 years and never finished the eigth grade.

I suggest you think before rip you jacka$$.

 

[Dizel8]

"I am simply trying to look at an idea that might forward our career by limiting numbers entering. I am certainly not in favor of creating a country club enviroment that allows only the rich or priviledged to prevail."

Well, what will discern who gets to enter and who will not?

In a country that prides itself with Living the Dream, we now want to deny that dream to someone because........? When your son or daughter raises eyes to the sky, as the 747 passes overhead, with that unmistakleable glint in his eye, what will you say? "Sorry my child, you cannot enter that society"!

While I sense your idea, I just cannot see how it would work!

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I however was extremely priviledged because I am one of ten kids. My father was a factory worker for Whirlpool for 40 years and never finished the eigth grade.

I suggest you think before rip you jacka$$.

And now you'd like to prevent somone from similar circumstances from following in your footsteps. You sir are the jacka$$.

I noticed you couldn't come up with any response whatsoever to my questions regarding the questions of safety being connected to non collegiate certification tracks. I guess you know it's a totally false assertion. Why don't you own up to this by admitting it's total BS?

You are quite disingenuous. All you want to do is limit the number of applicants by creating financial barriers to entry. Please don't couch your plan in terms of promoting safety. That's all I ask.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

What seems to work well is the concept of the American Medical Association. The AMA works by regulating the entrants into medical school and sets the standard for students while in school. This is done while working with the federal government to insure safety and compliance.

New Plan ... You and I have diametrically opposed views of the AMA. The AMA is the single greatest roadblock to aviation style safety reform in the medical field. Have you ever wondered why our nation's doctors kill over 200,000 people each year due to preventable and repeated medical errors ... not poor outcomes ... we're talking ERRORS ... errors that have been made repeatedly by other doctors at other hospitals for decades. Why is it the medical profession doesn't investigate these repeated blunders (except at a local level) and learn from them nationally?

As an example ... Nurse confuses drip lines late at night and baby dies at hospital A because he's injected with alcohol. The doctor investigating this error on behalf of hospital A discovers this error has repeatedly occurred at numerous hospitals resulting in numerous deaths over a 40 year period. Upon further investigation, this doctor discovers that after multiple deaths hospital B decided to add a purple dye to alcohol (no bodily fluid is naturally purple) ... bam ... no more deaths from this error ever again! Why did this information and its solution not get transmitted nationwide decades ago saving all those lives? (like aviation safety) ...

I am opposed to tort reform in medicine for this very reason. Without law suits and substantial verdicts holding incompetent MD's accountable, and with their current track record of not disciplining their incompetent own, the AMA is like the Catholic church ... both have turned a blind eye knowing more will be harmed by their inaction ... but definitely in denial as to their culpability.

So ... if the whole model for your overhaul is based on the AMA, I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

BBB

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Furthermore this "plan" would have a tragic effect on FBO's and 141 schools that currently employ thousands of people. Great thinking. More people out of work and business owners investments wiped out.

It's easy to recognize greed and selfishness from quite a distance, isn't it?

 

[New Plan]

Dave, D8, Beer Belly-

Is this forum your way of taking out your agression? Is this how you treat your fellow man? The moment you disagree with any part of an idea you attack. I think if you all slowly re-read my posts you will find someone with altruistic motives.

What are any of you suggesting we do? I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am and have no desire to deny anyone that priveledge. I am ashamed of you guys. I have a great care and concern for my fellow pilots and those aspiring that ironically is why I posted in the first place.

If you are pissed off by your lot in life take it out in the gym. This forum was meant for meaningful dialogue. Not attack the moment you hear something you dont like. I post so that I too may learn...not in an effort to pontificate about BS.

 

[Dizel8]

Easy big fella, no need to get upset.

You wanted a discussion and you got one. Now because the thinking is different from yours, you perceive it as an attack? I reread my post and still fail to see how I was taking my "aggresion" or acting out "my lot" in life,which, BTW, I am rather enjoying,on you

Further I fail to see how say BBB is taking his aggressions out on you, he simply pointed out what he found to be wrong with your idea.

"I post so that I too may learn..." But you do not want to hear it when someone disagrees?

Now chill and make a more compelling argument, on why your idea might work!

P.S. Stay away from the "ugly" religous threads and any thread run by 100LL, you won't like it

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Dave, D8, Beer Belly-

Is this forum your way of taking out your agression?

No.

But I am still waiting on you to either clarify or retract your pontification on how collegiate 141 programs produce safer pilots than those from other career tracks.

You have a way of dodging questions which is rather annoying.

Either back up your claim or admit it's BS. Your "low credibility light" is illuminated and noone can cancel the alarm except you.

I anxiously await your admission of being full of $hit.