Jet Blue vs. ATA - Please enlighten me!!

[Race Pilot]

Okay, I have seen threads like this before and thought, "What in the world is this guy asking this question for, either place would be a great one to work at." Well, here goes. I have a class at ATA in the L-1011 starting October 7th. I am pretty fired up about it and feel like ATA really has their act together right now with the military contract piece as well as the scheduled service that they have been moving into more heavily over the past few years.

I now have an interview at Jet Blue on October 2nd and from a pure paycheck standpoint, it sounds like a great place to be, $56/hr first year vs $36 at ATA. Upgrade to Captain in nine months vs four years at ATA. Captain pay of $110/hr after that nine months with overtime pay of $165/hr over 70 hours. ATA now has a 401K as well as a new "B" plan. JB has a 401 K only. You can see where I am going with this.

Please let me know anything you can so that I can weigh out my options to determine what move is best for me in the long run. I just turned 42 so I may only have 18 years left to fly 121 although it could easily be 23. All these things need to be figured in. Thanks in advance for any and all advise.

Bill

 

[Shag_McNasty]

My vote: JetBlue

Saw a program a few weeks back on CNN that profiled the CEO of JB. He's been successful at Morris Air, SWA, a Canadian start-up (can't remember the name), and now JetBlue. You can't argue with success.

 

[side stick-n]

First question. Is there a training contract at ATA? If not, go to ATA on the 7th. But don't miss that interview on the 2nd. That is if you are willing to take the job at jetBlue if it's offered. If you don't have the desire to work for jetBlue, don't accept the interview so someone else will have the chance. I expect that if you elect to go on the 2nd, you will prefer jetBlue over ATA. However, the process takes time and is very selective. I wouldn't want to be the one to suggest you not take the ATA job only to find out later you didn't get the jetBlue job. At least you have to option to come to JFK and check everything out. It's a good thing your class didn't start a week earlier....

Good luck in your decision. You're very fortunate to have to make one.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

Well, I enjoy my job here at ATA and the flying has been fun, but I sure want to be a captain. Been here three and a half years and my guess is that a captain position is still a couple years away.

You're in a tough position, because you probably won't know the results of your JetBlue interview before the start of your ATA class. Unfortunately, ATA has a training contract, so if you start class at ATA then JetBlue calls, you'll have that contract hanging over you if you decide to leave. On the other hand, it's really hard to turn down a firm offer. JetBlue could place you in a hiring pool and then slow down growth and leave you treading water for a long time (see all the SWA guys on this board).

I was in a similar position three and a half years ago. I had an offer from Vanguard where captain upgrade was less than a year. I turned down a firm class date without knowing the results of my ATA interview. I was fortunate that ATA called a few days later and offered me a class. What's been depressing since then is watching guys get hired at JetBlue and becoming captains so quickly while upgrades at ATA have stagnated (I was flying with captains who had less than two years with the company when I finished IOE).

All things considered (such as commuting to JFK) I would choose JetBlue if I had an offer from both companies. For if they both went under, I'd rather be an out of work Airbus Captain than an out of work L-1011 FO.

Finally, realize that I'm just like every single airline pilot who always thinks that the grass is always greener on the other side. Good luck at what you decide. Do be humble though. Remember there are thousands of pilots who would love to be in your shoes now.

 

[ultrarunner]

Re: Jet Blue vs. ATA - Please enlighten

Well, here goes. I have a class at ATA in the L-1011 starting October 7th.

I now have an interview at Jet Blue on October 2nd and from a pure paycheck standpoint, it sounds like a great place to be.....
Bill

Dude, this is so easy....

Life is about choices, and contrary to what some will tell you, the more the better....

Keep in mind that you can't turn down what's not been offered.

Head to the interview, check it out, and look forward to your ATA class date. If JetBlue calls, well, you now have a choice to make, if not, be satisified that you put yourself in the best position to have all opportunities available to you. Good luck at the interview, I'm sure you'll do fine.

 

[sayagain?]

Race-

The ATA training contract could weigh in heavily with your decision. Maybe I'll find out what you decided if you show up for indoc on the 7th.

sayagain?

If you go to JB, maybe I can have your L1011 slot. I live in BWI and see those birds on the ramp everyday.

 

[side stick-n]

Now that I think about it more, wait for jetBlue so sayagain? can have your L1011 slot.

 

[sayagain?]

Thanks buddy.

Have any good Kung Pao Chicken lately?

sayagain?

 

[Race Pilot]

Thanks for all the replies so far guys. I really appreciate all the input. I think the ATA training contract states that you don't owe them a thing until after your checkride. That's about six or eight weeks into it I think. I of course have never liked it when anyone took an opportunity away from someone else. So I would hate to start with ATA, get an offer from JB later and then decide to jump ship and head to JFK. However, some of the advice I have gotten in past weeks says that in this business that's just the way it goes sometimes and it's life in the airlines. That said, it's still hard for me to think that someone might be out there that really needs and wants the class and then I bail out after say four weeks taking that opportunity away.

Of course, as mentioned earlier, I'll never know if I don't at least go to the interview on the 2nd and see what shakes out. Then if JB calls with good news I'll have a lot of soul searching to do. I think I would be sincerely happy at either place, JB pays more money but ATA has some decent pay raises in their contract where JB does it whenever they feel like it. Also as mentioned ATA has a B plan but more money invested correctly in tax free instruments could make up for that.

I have read several posts that many of you guys who replied have made and they always seem to be well thought out and right on track. So again I appreciate the responses. Guess I'll be going to NY week after next and then probably to Indy on the 7th. After that we'll just wait and see. And of course I do feel blessed to have such decisions to make in a time like this. I hope we all get what we are looking for!!

 

[side stick-n]

Race Pilot,

For planning purposes, those not selected for the 2nd phase (background check and reference calls) are notified fairly quickly. However, the 2nd phase can take a month or more. Then your info will go before the hiring board which will meet shortly after if at all possible. Unfortunately, sometimes it can be tough to get all the members freed up at the same time so it could take a while longer. My point is that it may take a full 6-8 weeks to get the final answer and a week or so longer is not uncommon.

Good luck at ATA and have a great time in NY at the interview.

And no sayagain?, I haven't. In fact, I prefer General Tso's Kitty which I had just last week.

 

[ATA75Pilot]

Race Pilot.....

My two cents....

Definitely go to the interview.

However, any job offer from JB will happen late in your training here at ATA. You will probably have to make the decision the night before your checkride.

If the left seat is a priority....go with JB. I've been here just over 4 years. When I got hired I was fed the old "left seat in two years line" as people were indeed upgrading that fast when I got hired. In fact, our junior most 73 Captain has only been here 8 months longer than me. He has been a Captain for 6 months or so and like TriStar_dvr, I conservatively estimate another 2 maybe 3 years for me to have a shot at the left seat....thats 6 years plus. My point in this long winded story is that anyone getting hired now at ATA should plan on the right seat indefinitely. I don't see any great growth here in the future and the guys above me won't be leaving for the other Majors anytime soon. There are alot of PO'd FO's now that are angry at not being in the left seat because they believed in what they were told at the interview.

Other points to consider....

Given the choice I wouldn't work for an airline without union backing, preferably ALPA. All negatives aside, the support I get from ALPA on Medical and Legal issues is worth every dime I pay in dues.

JB sounds like a fantastic place to work on a day to day comparison with working here (I have a few friends there myself) but if things get tough in the future - there would be no system of checks and balances to protect the pilot group.

ATA is coming up on 30 years in the biz. Not a bad track record if you are looking for long term career stability (an oxymoron in this industry for sure). I'm in no way saying JB won't be around that long...but aviation history has a way of repeating itself. The past is littered with the corpses of carriers that were in the same position JB is today.

ATA will give you a variety of flying types here. If you want the chance to touch down in Kuwait City, Shannon, Sicily, Diego Garcia, Japan, Trondhiem, Germany, Hawaii, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Greece, Bosnia, The Azores, London, Spain, then here is where to be. I'm extremely glad that I was afforded the opportunity to experience that type of flying in my career.

That being said....if you just want to stay domestic then you can do that also (in fact I am in 73 school right now because I want a change for a couple years).

Good Luck in whatever path you choose. The only thing I've learned in this career is this :

You will never know whether the choices you made were the right ones until the day you turn 60 years of age.

 

[Lumber Yak]

With the majors likely not hiring for the next 3-5 years, both choices are very good. At least you will get access to some great technology - after flying the L1011 for ATA - you could fly either the brand-new 737-800 (with winglets) or the 757-200/300. And of course, Jetblue sports a growing fleet of high-tech A320s - very nice and ergonomic flightdecks.

You win either way - glass is the way to go! Good luck...

 

[TriStar_drvr]

At least you will get access to some great technology - after flying the L1011 for ATA

Those of us who fly the L-1011 already are flying some great technology.

 

[Race Pilot]

Thanks again guys!!

Again, guys, thanks very much for the input. I am about twelve hours away from my AF retirement ceremony as I sit here and I feel so blessed to have these options out there. I WILL go to the interview with JB on the 2nd, and I WILL go to class with ATA on the 7th. I will continue to absorb as much information as I can about both airlines (I already know a good deal about ATA, thanks to many on this board) and if I get an offer from JB prior to my ATA checkride, then I think I will have enough info to do what is right for me and my family. As I (and others) have said, either way I don't think I can lose. Both are great companies for different reasons but I think I could be happy at either. Thanks again.

 

[dgs]

It more than money

Race Pilot -- Ironically, if all you are interested in is the pay scales, then despite the fact that you may make more money at jetBlue (both in the short and long term), you probably won't be happy here. Being part of the jetBlue team is bigger than the money. Our core values are Safety, Caring, Integrity, Fun, and Passion. There is a huge reward for those who live those values and who have faith in jetBlue's future. If you are all about pay, time off, and work rules, I suspect you may be in trouble at your interview.

For those who are willing to take the risk of joining a startup, and who believe in what we are doing--the potential for reward is incredible. The trick is that the success of the company, and your ultimate financial success will be determined by your selflessness and willingness to contribute to the company on a daily basis. The leadership of this company has been very generous in rewarding those who are willing to give to the company to make it a success. It's a win-win for everybody.

I know many of you will have a difficult time understanding this perspective. I also suspect that I'll get a few flames for this perspective, but it is one of our keys to success. It's our passion for serving our customers that sets us apart--not a passion for money. The money and benefits have come and will continue to come as we continue to please our customers.

You may not be as focused on money as your original post sounds, so if I've put words in your mouth, I apologize. If you stayed in the AF until retirement, then I know you know what being on a team and contributing to a greater goal is all about. I just wanted to make sure you knew where we are coming from. Good luck with your decision.

 

[Race Pilot]

dgs,

Don't worry about putting words in my mouth....you did but I certainly understand. That's one thing about the internet. It's a great tool but it's so easy to misunderstand someone when you can't see their face or hear the way the speak. All you can do is read the words and they are sometimes easy to misperceive.

As you noted, I am getting ready to retire from the Air Force. So I certainly do know what self-sacrifice is all about. Just ask many of the guys out there who could not put up with that sort of thing past the 10, 12, or 14 year point and left to go to the airlines. I stuck it out, tried to (and in many ways did) make a difference, and am very proud and honored to have given my country that time. I am not, nor have I ever been, about the money. I trust God with my life, including the financial part, and He has made it work out well for me so far.

I applaude you for speaking out for what Jet Blue is all about. That is the kind of organization I am looking for. I love hard work and I love helping people so it is the kind of place I need to be. What I was saying earlier though is that ATA seems to be the same kind of place. People enjoying helping people. Are there unhappy people at ATA, sure there is. Are there unhappy people at JB, yes. I had one interview with me at ATA because he had issues with JB, but I didn't let that sway me from trying to get an interview there. These were exactly the kinds of inputs that I was looking for when I made my original post. I want to know the "big picture", not just what my monthly paycheck will be or what my retirement check will buy the road. I have a wife and two kids, one of them going to college next year and the other three years behind, so these things are important to me, but they are not everything.

Again, thanks for the response and although I think you may have read me the wrong way initially, I think you can now see more clearly the type of person I am. And even if I end up at ATA for the rest of my career, I wish Jet Blue nothing but continued success and I hope that all the people there continue to do well. May you always have a tailwind and may your skies always be "Jet Blue"!!

 

[KC-10 Driver]

If only everyone on this board could be so cordial and intelligent...

It's nice to see a discussion regarding the relative merits of two different companies that doesn't turn into a flame fest.

Race, whereever you end up, Good Luck!

 

[ATA75Pilot]

That's just the kind of pilots that ATA and JB attract.

(tounge firmly planted in cheek for the humor impaired)

 

[Two-9-9-TwoSet]

at my last job, management pilots regularly read on this forum and have sought out people who are "unfaithful" to their company and gave them griefs, hope ATA isn't one.

good luck on your decision

 

[Race Pilot]

Unfaithful??

Who can say I am unfaithful? I haven't even started the job yet. As I have said throughout this thread, I haven't made any decision other than the fact that I will go to the Jet Blue interview, see what they have to offer, then go to class at ATA and work my tail off to be the best L-1011 driver I can be. If JB calls later and offers a job, I'll either say yes or no based on the experiences I had at the interview, my ATA experiences to date, and what I have learned about both companies through research and personal interviews.

As a matter of fact, I had a choice of airlines to fly to my interview in NYC. Who am I taking? ATA of course. What better way to get ahead of the game in learning their culture than to fly on them before going to class.

Again, as noted above. I have been faithful to the US Air Force for over twenty years, so whoever gets me for good will be getting a pilot who will work hard to help make their airline the best that it can be.