Jet Blue~thanks For The Open House Today (12dec06)!!!!!!!!

[FlyAuburn]

Just look at my avatar...I am an example of a guy who came on board with a good attitude, the company,however, has drained the Blue from my juice. It is time for a new handle.

Seriously though, as a rather senior 320 guy I would easily recall if given the opportunity. The original poster says that the ratio of guys leaving to hiring is small...I have to call BS on that. We have an alarming number of guys/gals leaving for their former carrier or simply quitting the industry.

What was once great admiration for what appeared to be a crack leadership team now only is distain and disgust. Values my a$$.

Juice

Dude, I'm just curious. How bad has it been for you? What may be so bad for you, may be normal for others. Spill the beans on your horrible experiences.

 

[Spectre]

True, there are people deferring... However I have had 5 of last 6 furloughees I have flown with all say they are going back on the second go-around... (the sixth was former AA/TWA). These were not junior guys or 190 pilots. These were all 320 line-holding captains... Maybe my sampling is not a true representation of the pilot group, but it is what it is....

Just to be clear: all of these guys would rather stay should the company "do the right thing". There are a lot of positives to our company, but the constant lip service from the company when it comes to updating our compensation package, is wearing our patience thin. Most folks are all out of the "blue juice" and it now comes down to a pure business/QOL decision. Time will tell...

The only guys I'd see going back to a legacy are guys fed up with commutes and who would be able to live at their domiciles like Atlanta, Chicago, Denver, or Minneapolis upon recall. Any line holding Captain here on the A320 is pulling in at least $150K a year. Why else would you return to a legacy to be an FO making half the pay with no hopes of upgrades for 10-12 years and no pension? Only CAL and AMR would be attractive for recalls. It's really not as popular to go back to legacies as you think. NWA will be through call backs by the fall of 2007 and will probably be hiring off the street then as no one is going back.

I agree with you as patience is thin among some JetBlue pilots over compensation. Then again, it's pretty hard to justify pay raises when you are not making money. This is what got many legacy carriers in trouble. I'm just happy we haven't had any furloughs or pay cuts that other legacies experienced. We're really not that bad off.

In good times, the company will do the right thing. People here early on remember our 30% pay raise in October of 2001 and 17% profit sharing. It's when times are bad that we need more communication from management and that's not happening from upper management down to our chief pilots. Why such the secret from the pay group? Why not tell us what you proposed to management?

 

[elag777]

So you are saying there will be at least a 10-15% attrition of pilots leaving JB. Sounds kind of high. Believe me, there is a far greater number of JB pilots turning down/deferring recall from their former legacy carriers (me included). Furthermore, how many JB pilots are retiring compared to legacies? If anyone is leaving, it's the E190 FO on lousy pay. Hopefully the pay issue will be addressed soon and those guys that left may be kicking themselves. So, you're probably not going to be moving up seniority that quick due to "attrition."

190 pay will be fixed Jan 1, I think LCC will be mad with their starting rates on the 190 then

 

[Spectre]

Spectre,

You maybe correct, time will tell. Have you resigned your number at your former carrier? When will you have to make the decision to resign or accept a recall. Deferring a recall with a opportunity later to accept is a good thing to have in your hip pocket but it really isn't a sign that people will not leave in greater numbers when they are only two option left; Stay or accept your final recall.

Someone posted the following from the UAL MEC:

Notice that after 2029 pilot were offered recall only 22 resigned. I doubt they work for jetBlue now, except Ms. B.S.

So, you don't believe people are leaving? WOW.



A320's FO and E190 CA have left in the past year.

For those that have not resigned their number, IMO, the decision to leave and accept a recall will be a difficult decision. The majority, IMO, will accept it rather than resign and stay a jetBlue.

It's not about my senority. JetBlue is a great place to work. 2007 will tell us if many think jetblue is or isn't great place to spend a career.

Great information. Notice only 33% have jumped at going back to UAL though. Others are on LOA or have deferred their recall. I believe the only guys who would go back if recalled are FOs here at JB. That is why JB management has to increase pay for these guys. Myself as a Captain on the bus working my arse off am pulling in $160-170K a year. There's no way I'd go back to NWA to fly as an FO on the DC-9 (I don't think I could fly steam gauges again). There is negative growth at NWA. Therefore, only movement up is due to retirements of about 200/year. That would make me a Captain on the DC-9 in about 10-12 years. Furthermore, the pension there is frozen. That's why the grass is not greener for me. You can say about the same for UAL, LCC, and DAL. If there is another industry downturn, these companies will not blink at furloughing you again. It's happened to several here already who have left JB and been furloughed again. Why trade my top 20% seniority to be bottom 5% seniority? Better schedules here and not on reserve.

I was recalled last month by NWA for a January training class. I've deferred the maximum allowed of 3 months. NWA only allows for 3 months of deferral time after the most junior pilot is on the property. To get the maximum time of 4 years, you have to prove you are in a contract that you can't get out of. Therefore, my resignation will probably happen around summer of 2007. Deferring recall is a free insurance policy and no pilot should resign their number until the deferral period is up. DAL is more generous with up to 7 years deferral from recall.

Again, our only true concern is 50% of the pilots here at JB and those are the FO's. Upgrade times here are still more attractive than at legacies. The climate could all change with upcoming mergers too. Who knows what will happen to seniority lists and furloughed status after a merger. It will be a tough choice for some, but not for me as whether or not to return. But, if you are going to go back, better to be on the property before the merger rather than after...

 

[thruthemurk]

Spectre,

I agree with many of the points in your post, particulary with regard to keeping options open as long as possible. If you are a top 20% A-320 Captain - it would obviously be hard to come anywhere close to your current pay and benefits by returning to your legacy. If on the other hand you are in any of the other three seats it is pretty easy to immediately make more money by going back - even to a narrow body right seat. Especially when looking at all compensation - not just hourly pay. The spectre of many years in the right seat obviously looms - but usually at enough money to feed your family and actually prepare for retirement even if you never upgrade.

This is definitely not the case at Jetblue. If you are not a line holding 320 CA the jobs pay significantly less than their counterparts anywhere - unless you count the regionals. In fact many regional captains driving 50 seat jets will make more than 100 seat jet captains at Jetblue. Unless the rumored raise is close to 20$/hr or more this will continue to be the case.

I know of at least 6 E190 Captains that have quit JetBLue over the last several months. While it may be expected for junior FO's to leave - this occurence places Jetblue in line with regional airlines who have CA's leave for "real jobs".

On a second note - what furloughees have left Jetblue and returned to their previous carrier to be furloughed again? I am not aware of any of the legacies furloughing again in the last couple of years.

Lastly, your comment regarding the future with regard to mergers is a very salient point. The past few years have shown that if you are with a legacy, chances are you will maintain a job in some fashion - even if the company spends three years in bankruptcy or is absorbed by another! I don't believe that same prognosis applies to JetBlue, and the biggest threat to remaining at JB is a hostile merger or managment missteps that drive the company out of business. In either case most if not all of the pilots could find themselves on the street with not much in the way of prospects.

 

[Splert]

I believe the only guys who would go back if recalled are FOs here at JB.

My buds' crash pad mate is a 190 CA and has a JAN class date at UAL.

 

[Blue Dude]

Any line holding Captain here on the A320 is pulling in at least $150K a year.

Dammit man, step away from the blue juice. Just do the math on that. You're saying that "any" line holding captain gets 90 hrs of hard time every month and gets paid $125 an hour? And never takes vacation or PTO? That's what you'd have to do to get to $150k. I'm in the top 10% and don't make nearly that because I don't live in a crash pad and whore myself on day turns at the expense of my real life. The average A320 line holding captain does well to earn $135k. That's $120/hr and 85 hrs of hard time a month.

Jeez, Spectre, enthusiasm is one thing, blindness to reality is something entirely different.

 

[Spectre]

Dammit man, step away from the blue juice. Just do the math on that. You're saying that "any" line holding captain gets 90 hrs of hard time every month and gets paid $125 an hour? And never takes vacation or PTO? That's what you'd have to do to get to $150k. I'm in the top 10% and don't make nearly that because I don't live in a crash pad and whore myself on day turns at the expense of my real life. The average A320 line holding captain does well to earn $135k. That's $120/hr and 85 hrs of hard time a month.

Jeez, Spectre, enthusiasm is one thing, blindness to reality is something entirely different.

Blindness to reality? You should see my paycheck. I don't have a crashpad either and bid only commutable trips. If all you are making is $135K a year with your seniority, you need to have a quick lesson on how to make money at JetBlue.

We all receive 9 hours/month of PTO. That's 108 additional pay hours a year. As a 5 year A320 Captain, that's $12,960 of straight pay or $19,440 of premium pay or PTS. Heck, that's like a month of pay without even checking in for work! If you selectively PTS two or three 25 hour credit trips a year, you can easily earn over $150K a year and still accrue additional PTO in your bank.

It's not financially wise to PTO or take vacation in big blocks here at JetBlue. That's just the system we have in place. Integrety? Well, just check there is plenty of reserve before you PTS and make sure it's not on a holiday or weekend. You won't feel too bad then. You certainly do not have to fly 90 hours a month to earn 90 hours pay here at JetBlue.

P.S. If you are in the top 10% seniority at JB, you could always cash out your stock options for $250K and not work for 1.5 years hehe.

 

[JBPA]

I'm in the top 20% and don't make anywhere near $150K. Oh, I bid commutable trips and use PTS when it suits me too. Why bid vacation, if you can call it that since we lose money, or use PTO?

I think we all tend to exaggerate our pay when talking to others. I know I do. It makes us feel better about our particular situation (bidding strategies, RSA whore, overall whore, not to mention our crappy pay and benes).

I have a a bud around my seniority that made north of $150K. He's always working and will be in the high 900's for BLOCK hours. Can you say 10 days off/month?

I'll stick with <700 block and $120K with 16-18 days off/month.

Finally, to the Blue Crew who'll likely tell me I should leave....I am looking elsewhere, especially given the circumstances of late.

 

[puddlejumper101]

sounds like SWA...except things are not going quite as well. JetBlue sounds like a SWA wannabe...

 

[Blue Dude]

Spectre, all I'm saying is that your math doesn't work. Even if you were to PTS a few trips here and there, to make $150k you would have to bid 93 hrs of credit every month (at $120/hr). The PTS would just replace what you've already bid so that is irrelevant. And to bid 93 hrs of credit every month, you'd have to come up with 10 hrs of soft time every month or you'd time out. There's not enough slack in the pairings (underblocking, rigs, 13:30's, training, PTS, etc.) for everyone to come up with that much every month.

You want to talk totals on your W-2, that's a different issue. That can include anything, from PTO buyback to stock options to CSPP profits. You can't count on any of that, so let's stick with flight pay. And "any" A320 line holder captain isn't going to be pulling down $150k in flight pay. Some may, but not "any" captain in the sense that you meant it, meaning that it's a typical figure. Any individual captain could choose to work that hard and game the system for all it's worth, but it would be very difficult to sustain it, and in the meantime he'd have no life. It couldn't be done by the pilot group as a whole.

 

[jbucpt]

blue dude,

im a six year captain, i averaged 83-86 hours a month, a couple of 90+ (due to the wife spending and golf equipment) 16 days off average, 3 weeks off in july. no stock cssp or options and will have grossed 141,000 +change for 2006.

thats my reality.

 

[Lake Alice]

In good times, the company will do the right thing. People here early on remember our 30% pay raise in October of 2001 and 17% profit sharing. It's when times are bad that we need more communication from management and that's not happening from upper management down to our chief pilots. Why such the secret from the pay group? Why not tell us what you proposed to management?

This is what kills me about senior people at Jetblue. The company started by paying extremely sub standard wages. When you got your whopping 30% raise you were still underpaid. And before you bring up any profit sharing comments when was the last time you received one of those. 75% of us have never seen one. Senior people or anyone at Jetblue who keeps on repeating D&D will "do the right thing" are IDIOTS! I am so sick and tired of hearing this. You agreed to poor wages when you started. You got a raise of 30% that still made you underpaid. We are all underpaid now in comparison to legacy carriers in bankruptcy.

Dave and Dave know this and it will not change. Take your "do the right thing" statement and shove it up your arse. This is a business and they will pay the very least to keep people quiet. Sans a union we will not be getting a raise. E-190 fo's maybe but that is just to stem the tide of people leaving that particular seat.

All this being said Jetblue is a nice place to work. You are treated fairly well, the people you work with are great and the schedules are not that bad. If you look at it as just a job you will be fine. As a career this is not it.

 

[Captzaahlie]

blue dude,

im a six year captain, i averaged 83-86 hours a month, a couple of 90+ (due to the wife spending and golf equipment) 16 days off average, 3 weeks off in july. no stock cssp or options and will have grossed 141,000 +change for 2006.

thats my reality.

I could get by on that (above pay), besides I don't have time for golf, so that might balance out my other halfs spending......... where can I get her re programed so that she helps me save for retirement instead of living for the moment?

 

[elag777]

This is what kills me about senior people at Jetblue. The company started by paying extremely sub standard wages. When you got your whopping 30% raise you were still underpaid. And before you bring up any profit sharing comments when was the last time you received one of those. 75% of us have never seen one. Senior people or anyone at Jetblue who keeps on repeating D&D will "do the right thing" are IDIOTS! I am so sick and tired of hearing this. You agreed to poor wages when you started. You got a raise of 30% that still made you underpaid. We are all underpaid now in comparison to legacy carriers in bankruptcy.

Dave and Dave know this and it will not change. Take your "do the right thing" statement and shove it up your arse. This is a business and they will pay the very least to keep people quiet. Sans a union we will not be getting a raise. E-190 fo's maybe but that is just to stem the tide of people leaving that particular seat.

All this being said Jetblue is a nice place to work. You are treated fairly well, the people you work with are great and the schedules are not that bad. If you look at it as just a job you will be fine. As a career this is not it.

I guess "one" could be happy with $11.00 less an hour at LCC year 10 on comparable equipment, and for WIW I think 1st year 190 pay will do some $5 dollars better than said LCC at $41 an hour, but I know the grass is always greener. $160hr 10yr wide body capt at LCC must be ecstatic eh?

 

[clickclickboom]

Spectre, JBPA, bluejuice 787 and others.. Please guys log onto bluepilots and spill yourBS..


Anyone that rationalizes our PTO accrual as a pay raise or additional pay is an idiot. Our PTO is an absolute min and it pays at base rate sick day? Family emergency? PTO bye bye

I know things are tough making $135, 141, 150 or even 160K for the guys that truly hate their wife and kids..

I am rt seat on the bus and my last pay check shows my ytd amount as $51,325 how's that for some reality?

I highly suggest you guys that are fed up to move on to something better. I would be very happy to move up the list and plan my future making 300% more than I make now.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Spectre, JBPA, bluejuice 787 and others.. Please guys log onto bluepilots and spill yourBS..


Anyone that rationalizes our PTO accrual as a pay raise or additional pay is an idiot. Our PTO is an absolute min and it pays at base rate sick day? Family emergency? PTO bye bye

I know things are tough making $135, 141, 150 or even 160K for the guys that truly hate their wife and kids..

I am rt seat on the bus and my last pay check shows my ytd amount as $51,325 how's that for some reality?

I highly suggest you guys that are fed up to move on to something better. I would be very happy to move up the list and plan my future making 300% more than I make now.

Spectre, JBPA, bluejuice 787 and others..

Please don't post what you consider to be the negatives some where else as it's helpful for us wannabes to see both sides of the fence......
( as my therapist says it's OK to get it all out.... uke:

Any other projections on how many guys may bale from JB and resume recall rights from furloughs?
Thx,
Z

 

[IB6 UB9]

Finally, to the Blue Crew who'll likely tell me I should leave....I am looking elsewhere, especially given the circumstances of late.

Good. (you're senior to me! )

 

[bladeusa]

I could get by on that (above pay), besides I don't have time for golf, so that might balance out my other halfs spending......... where can I get her re programed so that she helps me save for retirement instead of living for the moment?

but you have to understand.. that is them.. at their senority in the company. what does your future look like ? taking into consideration growth, aircraft orders etc. FO pay on the E190 is alot different than status quo for a "senior" bus capt. i dont have a dog in this fight. i fly for a different carrier. just make sure you sit down and take a conservative realitic look at your future -both short and long term. you may be an fo for longer than you think. this is true for any airline. dont believe the hype, have realisitic expecations. good luck in your flying career where ever it is. and while i do say be your self.. still wouldnt hurt to keep the inner geek in check. CYA!

 

[thruthemurk]

Blade,

<<just make sure you sit down and take a conservative realitic look at your future -both short and long term. you may be an fo for longer than you think. >>


You have nailed it. There is only one seat out of 4 at jetblue that even remotely approaches a career-particularly when considering all of the non base pay issues. The other three seats pay less than anyone with reasonable time at a regional. The cuts in growth will draw more attention to the fact that most of the pilots here make sh!t wages. They gained a lot of mileage at JB by promising a quick upgrade on the bus along with pie in the sky option and stock purchase projections.


The reality of the Dave and David show is settling in and the unrest will grow unless they curb it. Next week will tell us a lot.