Jet Blue Productivity Advantage

[Draginass]

Don't forget that compensation is not only wages, it's also pension benefits which are a hefty part. What kind of pension does JB have?

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus? Also, I believe they have not yet seen the full brunt of heavy maintenence costs.

While JB is successful right now in the kind of economy that favors it and early in the life of its equipment, but, it's really too early to tell how they'll do in the long run.

 

[trainerjet]

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus?

Jeff G has been on this board denying that claim over and over and over. I'm sure he wouldn't mind denying it for the hundreth time. Or you could save him the trouble by searching his posts and reading what he has to say on this matter.

For example....here is a quote from a post he made on 12/4

"I don't often start a fight. Heck, much of the time I'm just making posters defend conventional wisdom with facts rather than just propagate more junk. How many times have you heard that JetBlue doesn't pay for aircraft, for instance? It's everywhere. On the net, on the radio (I actually was challenged on clearance delivery once by another aircraft), in the terminal, from jumpseaters. It's difficult being a target of this kind of scorn. "Y'know, you're only making money because you don't pay for your planes." If I never hear that again, it'll be too soon."

 

[A4Forever]

For what it's worth: When a new carrier starts up, the Company sets the initial wages. You wanta fly for me? Ok, we're gonna pay captains X$ and F/Os Y$. If you want the job, you take the pay. Over a period of years, in UALs case 70+, contracts become ammendable. Pilots seek and are most often able to obtain an increase in pay. JB wages are certainly lower because they were set by management on day one. Will they rise when a contract is negotiated? Probably. Having said that, the trend might be for stagnant or declining wages due to the economy, law of supply and demand or other mitigating factors. Now is not the best time to be negotiating for a pay increase. UAL pilots, under a recovery plan, might well be looking at pay cuts of 25 to 30%. If this comes to pass, what will happen at DAL, NWA, AA ect? My guess is that it will have a far reaching impact on all of us for years to come.

 

[JayDub]

JB wages are certainly lower because they were set by management on day one. Will they rise when a contract is negotiated?

Guys, if you don't know, don't guess. JetBlue sends out crew member satisfaction surveys every year. After the first one, they felt maybe the pay was a little low. They announced a pay raise effective 10-1-2001. Then 9-11-01 happened.

They held off on the pay increase to see how things would shake out. In November, they announced they would give it to us after all, with retro pay. The increase amounted to somewhere around 33% for captains.

What kind of pension does JB have?

It would appear (from all of the defections from them to us) better than USAirways'.

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus? Also, I believe they have not yet seen the full brunt of heavy maintenence costs.

As I stated in an earlier post on another thread, American Airlines tried their darndest to prove this correct, and couldn't. I would imagine it would have been darn useful to them when they took JetBlue to court over the slots in LGB. Instead, AA agreed to a compromise.

As far as MX costs, it depends on what you define as heavy mX costs. Does this include C checks? I know we've had some C checks, but other than that, I don't hang out in MX Ops too much so I am not sure.

The only reason I know most of these answers off the top of my head is because I have put in a little research on these subjects. I am not merely a cheer leader for JetBlue. I have a whole lot riding on this company being what they say they are. So far, I can find no credible evidence to the contrary.

JayDub

 

[SWA/FO]

"Industry leading pay" is only good if the checks are coming in.

FACT - When your furloughed from DAL, AMR, NWA, USA & UAL your not making "Industry Leading pay". Unless Home Depot has stepped it up?

What is wrong with building a strong company while making a great living?

Making 200,000/yr. + stock options (We are not talking UAL stock!!) + profit sharing (is not that bad). While the company grows 8% + a year. Who cares about retirements when your expanding like that!! S*it, I'll be changing my name to SWA/Capt. soon!!

 

[HA25]

while I understand the importance of job security... the guys that senior at American, Delta, et al are not going anywhere any time soon, AND they have pentions and other bene's that SWA and JB don't offer. As for all this talk about how all the majors are going out of business and that JB and SWA are the only ones that will remain... check that attitude at the door... many a pilot flying for a great company got kicked to the curb down the line to his and everyones surprise. SWA is well managed today and the down economy is helping them and hurting their rivals.... give it some time and the tables could turn. In a strong economy, where money is not so tight, people may not want to make 3 stops and sit in coach on a business trip. And the people running the finances of SWA could turn over and idiots could take the help (all this would not be know except in hindsight)... Look at DAL and AMR vs UAL and US Air.... all have similar business, but two are BK and two still have billions in the bank to ride this out for years....

 

[banned username 1]

It's great to see people who are jazzed about their company, whoever they work for. They make great ambassadors every day and are essential to the company's success. Some may view with secret envy, wondering what it must be like to work at a place like that. Good for you guys- really. There really is room for everybody in this business given the passenger potential in this country.

What doesn't get put into the equation about costs per mile is the stuff that we as pilots rarely see: the non-operational support infrastructure. The newer carriers simply don't have the gargantuan "behind the scenes" people that the UALs and AMRs, etc. have. SWA, although having been around for awhile, has done a good job of staying lean and mean and hasn't lost sight of it's importance to do so. I like to equate businesses with organisms (no, I didn't say ORGASMS). You've read my opinions about business Darwinism and another is that every time you creat another department, ala Maslow, it's prime focus is survival and making itself bigger- and I don't care what they do, survival is paramount. UAL, and I'll be many others have departments for the most arcane stuff. Along with work rule changes and pay cuts for the operational employees, these are the people that unfortunately are going to have to be let go in order to return to profitability. I was not in the military, but I always thought of UAL as being like the government with its levels of staffing. It's OK if your company also prints the money, but in this case, we don't.

UAL78

 

[A4Forever]

JDUB. Pilot satisfaction surveys are certainly a new way to approach collective bargining. If JB is able to pull that off forever, the pilots being able to get improvements to their contract without having to go to the table, it may set a precedence for the entire industry. I just cant see management being that benevolent.

 

[JayDub]

A4Forever,

That's two of hoping it lasts. With this process, you can even get improvements in areas others can't. For example Chief pilot's office, and the Training Department. Right now, it makes no financial sense to p*** us off, and that's all the motivation I think these guys need.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've been treated like crap by an employer before. This ain't one of those times.

JayDub

 

[dogg]

So the argument drags on and on:
The only way to get real perspective is to go find and talk to the pilots, csa's, rampers, mechanics etc... who helped start AA, UAL, USAIR, DAL, NWA etc and see if their enthusiasm and excitement and customer service attitudes were similar to JET BLUE, AIRTRAN, SWA etc. I surmise that they were and it has been a long term subtle shift that has brought the big airlines to where they are today with their outrageous costs and crappy attitudes and flawed, failing business plans.
I think it is safe to say that any time that a person can be involved in the founding of a company, it is exciting and new and people are willing to make great sacrifice for the common good. But it takes truly great leadership to foster those attitudes beyond the startup period. Only time will tell. As for the discussion now, a lot of keystrokes are being wasted on both sides trying to compare an apple(old well established airline) to an orange(very small startup carrier). Carry on