Jet Blue Productivity Advantage

[Intruder One]

To NYRANGER

You are correct.....what happens if there is a race to the bottom,where does it stop or does mangement say lets see how low we can go.Not long ago ther was a comparision in the local paper about JB and United,no wonder JB is making money.The only ones making a decent wage are the pilots,rampers.FA's and gate agents are commuter wages.This will catch up with them sooner or later...and without happy service employees you have no airline.

 

[NYRANGERS]

So exactly what industry-leading precedent did PSA set while you were working there?

Respectfully,

JayDub

?????????????????????????

I don't understand what you mean? PSA was a great place for me to advance my career. I never planed on staying at PSA for the rest of my career.

 

[JayDub]

First off, let me say congratulations Albie!!! That's outstanding news. You know, they finally figured out what causes that.

NY Rangers, PSA didn't exactly break any records when it came to their contract, true. But salary and pay rate are always changing, it's the nature of the business. The point of my comment was that PSA was one of the first to jump on the PFT band wagon, and one of the last airlines to drop this practice.

I know several people that used PFT to get on at their first airline, and some I even consider close friends. That pretty much is their business. However, none of these people get on message boards and criticize other people for bringing down pay rates at their respective airlines. I don't know (or care) if you paid for your training at PSA, but as an airline they sure endorsed the practice. It just bugs me you seem to jump on every jetBlue thread of late to tell us that we, as an airline, are bringing down pay rates for the entire industry. Seems pretty gutsy for you to throw stones at jetBlue, having come from PSA.

You seem to be all worried about what I make, while USAirways is paying people hired in 1987 less than I make. I think you are misplacing your frustrations.

JayDub

 

[Intruder One]

To Jay Dub:

Not as a F/O you couldn't,only because you can go to the left seat so quick.If it were anywhere else it would be years before you would see the left seat, maybe never.One day the hiring will slow down or stop and then they will be like everyone else,nothing goes on forever. But as you are probably like most pilots the ones behind me are of no concern,just be thankful you were hired in the beginning.Start ups don't come along very often but when they do it's great for the first ones hired,but it's not a realistic comparsion to airlines that have been around 30 or 40+ years.

 

[Race Pilot]

CONGRATULATIONS ALBIE!!

Nice to see great things like that happen to people who do a great job offering constructive comments. Hope you have the plane you want by the time she's ready to solo.

Bill

 

[FedEx2003plz]

Washington Post

Here's what James K. Glassman had to say in the business section of today's "Post."

• JetBlue Airways (JBLU). Since its inception in December 1995, the Raymond James & Associates list of 10 best picks for the year ahead has returned an annual average of 47 percent, compared with just 9 percent for the S&P, an index it thoroughly whipped in each of the seven years. That's a fantastic record, and each year I pay close attention to the choices. The new list, just out last week, includes my favorite initial public offering of 2001: JetBlue Airways, which has just about everything going for it -- strong balance sheet, low costs, new fleet of planes, excellent routes, highly productive nonunion workforce, good cash flow, access to capital markets to fund its growth, demoralized competitors teetering on bankruptcy and customers (like me) who love the product. In a commodity business, JetBlue stands out for its use of technology and its great service (for example, live TV at each seat and a wonderful Web site for booking flights). Remember, however, that JetBlue is still small (market cap, $1.8 billion; revenue, $624 million) and the airline industry is highly volatile and at the mercy of oil prices and economic cycles. JetBlue's price has come back to reality after soaring to $55 shortly after the IPO, and, at $38 a share on Thursday, the stock's P/E (price to earnings) ratio, based on Raymond James's projections for 2003 profits, is 22 -- absurdly tame for a company that, if analyst Jim Parker is correct, could double its earnings in each of the next three years.

 

[Eagleflip]

Congratulations, Albie! I suppose all those stories about pulling Gz and having girls were actually true in your case.

To all, is the job thing about making as much money as possible or having a reasonable income while keeping a high level of job satisfaction? I'm not minimalizing the numerous issues that we've touched on this thread, but it seems to me that my overall happiness with JB nicely counterbalances the overall compensation issue.

None of us have crystal balls (!), so I figure we'll know if we made the right choice at age 60. As for me, I'm confident I will be a happy man with a happy family.

And maybe my son will marry Albie's daughter to boot...

 

[HA25]

congrats too albie....

on the other issue.... I think I've said enough.... Good luck to you JB pilots and lets hope that you all continue to work towards restoring this profession to its former levels.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NY Rangers, PSA didn't exactly break any records when it came to their contract, true. But salary and pay rate are always changing, it's the nature of the business. The point of my comment was that PSA was one of the first to jump on the PFT band wagon, and one of the last airlines to drop this practice.

I
JayDub

PSA wasn't pay for training when I was hired in 98'. I am still not sure what you are trying to say.

 

[Smoking Man]

PSA was one of the first to drop PFT, when PSA started getting the dorks in 95 the PFT was droped. I know the J-ball pilots were PFT, we operated EMB-120's for a short period of time, (not sure if any PFT occured during that time). No one has PFT on the Dornier.

 

[Draginass]

Don't forget that compensation is not only wages, it's also pension benefits which are a hefty part. What kind of pension does JB have?

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus? Also, I believe they have not yet seen the full brunt of heavy maintenence costs.

While JB is successful right now in the kind of economy that favors it and early in the life of its equipment, but, it's really too early to tell how they'll do in the long run.

 

[trainerjet]

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus?

Jeff G has been on this board denying that claim over and over and over. I'm sure he wouldn't mind denying it for the hundreth time. Or you could save him the trouble by searching his posts and reading what he has to say on this matter.

For example....here is a quote from a post he made on 12/4

"I don't often start a fight. Heck, much of the time I'm just making posters defend conventional wisdom with facts rather than just propagate more junk. How many times have you heard that JetBlue doesn't pay for aircraft, for instance? It's everywhere. On the net, on the radio (I actually was challenged on clearance delivery once by another aircraft), in the terminal, from jumpseaters. It's difficult being a target of this kind of scorn. "Y'know, you're only making money because you don't pay for your planes." If I never hear that again, it'll be too soon."

 

[A4Forever]

For what it's worth: When a new carrier starts up, the Company sets the initial wages. You wanta fly for me? Ok, we're gonna pay captains X$ and F/Os Y$. If you want the job, you take the pay. Over a period of years, in UALs case 70+, contracts become ammendable. Pilots seek and are most often able to obtain an increase in pay. JB wages are certainly lower because they were set by management on day one. Will they rise when a contract is negotiated? Probably. Having said that, the trend might be for stagnant or declining wages due to the economy, law of supply and demand or other mitigating factors. Now is not the best time to be negotiating for a pay increase. UAL pilots, under a recovery plan, might well be looking at pay cuts of 25 to 30%. If this comes to pass, what will happen at DAL, NWA, AA ect? My guess is that it will have a far reaching impact on all of us for years to come.

 

[JayDub]

JB wages are certainly lower because they were set by management on day one. Will they rise when a contract is negotiated?

Guys, if you don't know, don't guess. JetBlue sends out crew member satisfaction surveys every year. After the first one, they felt maybe the pay was a little low. They announced a pay raise effective 10-1-2001. Then 9-11-01 happened.

They held off on the pay increase to see how things would shake out. In November, they announced they would give it to us after all, with retro pay. The increase amounted to somewhere around 33% for captains.

What kind of pension does JB have?

It would appear (from all of the defections from them to us) better than USAirways'.

Also, maybe some JB guys can confirm or deny, is JB deferring some payments to Airbus? Also, I believe they have not yet seen the full brunt of heavy maintenence costs.

As I stated in an earlier post on another thread, American Airlines tried their darndest to prove this correct, and couldn't. I would imagine it would have been darn useful to them when they took JetBlue to court over the slots in LGB. Instead, AA agreed to a compromise.

As far as MX costs, it depends on what you define as heavy mX costs. Does this include C checks? I know we've had some C checks, but other than that, I don't hang out in MX Ops too much so I am not sure.

The only reason I know most of these answers off the top of my head is because I have put in a little research on these subjects. I am not merely a cheer leader for JetBlue. I have a whole lot riding on this company being what they say they are. So far, I can find no credible evidence to the contrary.

JayDub

 

[SWA/FO]

"Industry leading pay" is only good if the checks are coming in.

FACT - When your furloughed from DAL, AMR, NWA, USA & UAL your not making "Industry Leading pay". Unless Home Depot has stepped it up?

What is wrong with building a strong company while making a great living?

Making 200,000/yr. + stock options (We are not talking UAL stock!!) + profit sharing (is not that bad). While the company grows 8% + a year. Who cares about retirements when your expanding like that!! S*it, I'll be changing my name to SWA/Capt. soon!!

 

[HA25]

while I understand the importance of job security... the guys that senior at American, Delta, et al are not going anywhere any time soon, AND they have pentions and other bene's that SWA and JB don't offer. As for all this talk about how all the majors are going out of business and that JB and SWA are the only ones that will remain... check that attitude at the door... many a pilot flying for a great company got kicked to the curb down the line to his and everyones surprise. SWA is well managed today and the down economy is helping them and hurting their rivals.... give it some time and the tables could turn. In a strong economy, where money is not so tight, people may not want to make 3 stops and sit in coach on a business trip. And the people running the finances of SWA could turn over and idiots could take the help (all this would not be know except in hindsight)... Look at DAL and AMR vs UAL and US Air.... all have similar business, but two are BK and two still have billions in the bank to ride this out for years....

 

[banned username 1]

It's great to see people who are jazzed about their company, whoever they work for. They make great ambassadors every day and are essential to the company's success. Some may view with secret envy, wondering what it must be like to work at a place like that. Good for you guys- really. There really is room for everybody in this business given the passenger potential in this country.

What doesn't get put into the equation about costs per mile is the stuff that we as pilots rarely see: the non-operational support infrastructure. The newer carriers simply don't have the gargantuan "behind the scenes" people that the UALs and AMRs, etc. have. SWA, although having been around for awhile, has done a good job of staying lean and mean and hasn't lost sight of it's importance to do so. I like to equate businesses with organisms (no, I didn't say ORGASMS). You've read my opinions about business Darwinism and another is that every time you creat another department, ala Maslow, it's prime focus is survival and making itself bigger- and I don't care what they do, survival is paramount. UAL, and I'll be many others have departments for the most arcane stuff. Along with work rule changes and pay cuts for the operational employees, these are the people that unfortunately are going to have to be let go in order to return to profitability. I was not in the military, but I always thought of UAL as being like the government with its levels of staffing. It's OK if your company also prints the money, but in this case, we don't.

UAL78

 

[A4Forever]

JDUB. Pilot satisfaction surveys are certainly a new way to approach collective bargining. If JB is able to pull that off forever, the pilots being able to get improvements to their contract without having to go to the table, it may set a precedence for the entire industry. I just cant see management being that benevolent.

 

[JayDub]

A4Forever,

That's two of hoping it lasts. With this process, you can even get improvements in areas others can't. For example Chief pilot's office, and the Training Department. Right now, it makes no financial sense to p*** us off, and that's all the motivation I think these guys need.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I've been treated like crap by an employer before. This ain't one of those times.

JayDub

 

[dogg]

So the argument drags on and on:
The only way to get real perspective is to go find and talk to the pilots, csa's, rampers, mechanics etc... who helped start AA, UAL, USAIR, DAL, NWA etc and see if their enthusiasm and excitement and customer service attitudes were similar to JET BLUE, AIRTRAN, SWA etc. I surmise that they were and it has been a long term subtle shift that has brought the big airlines to where they are today with their outrageous costs and crappy attitudes and flawed, failing business plans.
I think it is safe to say that any time that a person can be involved in the founding of a company, it is exciting and new and people are willing to make great sacrifice for the common good. But it takes truly great leadership to foster those attitudes beyond the startup period. Only time will tell. As for the discussion now, a lot of keystrokes are being wasted on both sides trying to compare an apple(old well established airline) to an orange(very small startup carrier). Carry on

 

[NYRANGERS]

"Industry leading pay" is only good if the checks are coming in.

FACT - When your furloughed from DAL, AMR, NWA, USA & UAL your not making "Industry Leading pay". Unless Home Depot has stepped it up?



Not too cool to take pot shots at the furloughed guys. I sincerely hope your words come back to bite you in the ass. You should not **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** with bad karma.

 

[HA25]

I guess what pisses me off is hearing pilots, and I work with some, who keep talking about how OVERPAID pilots are. I have FO's that tell me that the $48K they make is "more than they need" and who needs $200K and $300K.

Well, if we need to cut costs at AMR and UAL etc.... What about the $55,000/year gate agent and $75,000 flight attendants that through their unions have gotten the idea that they are as important as pilots. These were never intended to be career jobs at the airlines, and they ARE unskilled labor jobs that pay better than many white collor jobs. At UAL, they pay an A&P to marshall in airplanes... I did that for $6.50/hr when I was a student, and for much less when I was in the military. It's not rocket science!

 

[A4Forever]

V70T5: Ouch! My wife is a UAL flight attendent and would be happy to argue your point that she is "UNSKILLED LABOR". Maybe not brain surgery but surely not unskilled. Also, a senior FA at UAL flying all international would make somewhere between 40 and 45K with max hrs. Now she wants to know where she can make the 75K! Guess I should not let her read over my shoulder.

 

[HA25]

Don't know about UAL but senior F/A's at AMR make upwards of 75K.... Senior being 30 years Plus. This is what Im told, anyway.

As for unskilled.... by the definition of the department of labor, skilled labor is labor where there is an "unusually lengthy" amount of training required or advanced schooling. Most F/A classes people with no experience and turn them into fully qualified "crew" with in a months time. Hair stylists spend 6 or more months and bearly qualify as "skilled"

pilots have degrees, then years of experience before they touch the yoke at a mainline carrier.

So with all due respect to your wife (and my wife is an ex-teacher who made $29,000 with a masters degree), even $45K is excessive for an F/A, especially when there are as many as 30,000 of them and they don't just work until they get married anymore!

 

[Splert]

Do ground service personnel, customer service, FA's, Pilots get?

A). Health Insurance and if so what percentage is paid by the company how rich or poor are the benefits, is it an HMO or PPO, what is the deductible, are the co-payments high or low, what type of drugs are covered is there a list or is it an open formulary.

B). 401K matching contributions and if so what percentage,

C). Retirement accounts or pensions and if so what percentage,

D). Stock options,

E). Other employee benefits that do not show up on the paycheck but are otherwise paid for by the company?

Help me understand, how much does it cost for the employer to pay the employee $1.00 in hourly wages?

$2.00, $3.00 or $4.00 per hour?

Darn!

 

[NYRANGERS]

V70T5: Ouch! My wife is a UAL flight attendent and would be happy to argue your point that she is "UNSKILLED LABOR". Maybe not brain surgery but surely not unskilled. Also, a senior FA at UAL flying all international would make somewhere between 40 and 45K with max hrs. Now she wants to know where she can make the 75K! Guess I should not let her read over my shoulder.

Reminds me of this story..........(not sure if true or not)


F/A says to ground school instructor......
"We have three weeks of ground school, the pilots have five. If I stay for two more weeks can I be pilot?"

Regardless if true or not, I love that story.

Many Delta F/A's make 60K plus

 

[HA25]

that is a true story...... happened at AWA...

 

[canyonblue]

What about the $55,000/year gate agent and $75,000 flight attendants that through their unions have gotten the idea that they are as important as pilots. These were never intended to be career jobs at the airlines, and they ARE unskilled labor jobs that pay better than many white collor jobs

Dude,
Thats chump change to an autoworker who drives a forklift at GM. Try close to $100,000. My wife knows a woman who's brother-in-law does just that, and quit high school in the tenth grade. Most UNSKILLED laborers in the auto industry make more than any gate agent or F/A, and have a layoff benifit that pays them 90% of their pay while off for a few months. Its the UAW and why you pay $30,000 for a new car. The UNSKILLED control most companies as the wild cards. What group has United by the tomatos now. If you don't pay people enough you really can't expect them to care if you threaten to shut down their company. Read the Eastern story.

 

[HA25]

overpaid unskilled autoworkers are one issue, but we're talking about why it is that the airlines aren't able to afford to pay pilots like they used to.... back in the day, Pan paid their Caps twice what UAL paid theirs (adjusted for inflation).. today, but with $75/yr FA's and CSR's, the pot is being shared with 60000 other unskilled workers, don't forget $30/hr rampers and baggage handlers.....their people were mostly short term non union employees in the 50's-70's... they worked for a few years and then moved on to go to school, get married, or other unskilled work..

Don't you people get it? There is only so much you can bleed from this turnip(the airline). The old days were not like this, and don't give me this deregulation crap, that has nothing to do with cash flow.