Jeppesen / NACO, ? WHO CARES!

[Metro752]

I can't afford Jeppesen, but all these people keep telling me there is something special about them and I should get used to and be more familiar with Jeppesen. It's getting old. I'm gonna use the cheap stuff for as long as I can, along with my $2.99 watch, and $5.99 polarized sunglasses from Walgreen's. Along with my fast food joint napkin stash in case I run out of TP, every so often ....... ! What's the point of spending money you don't have. I figure if I can pass the instrument written, I can probably handle learning how to read a different publishers format for terminal procedures.

Dumb post, maybe, but man this argument is old.

 

[NW_Pilot]

I can't afford Jeppesen, but all these people keep telling me there is something special about them and I should get used to and be more familiar with Jeppesen. It's getting old. I'm gonna use the cheap stuff for as long as I can, along with my $2.99 watch, and $5.99 polarized sunglasses from Walgreen's. Along with my fast food joint napkin stash in case I run out of TP, every so often ....... ! What's the point of spending money you don't have. I figure if I can pass the instrument written, I can probably handle learning how to read a different publishers format for terminal procedures.

Dumb post, maybe, but man this argument is old.

I prefer the Jeppesen Charts And Plates because no matter where I am in the world the format is usually most always the same!!!! Vs. government charts. You will also find that most places the only charts & plates available are Jeppesen. Go get a set of Iceland Government Plates be ready to Spend Some $$$$$ and spend some time learning the differences in each area....


I will save you some time here is the link to order iceland AIP!
http://www.aircraftdelivery.net/ferrypilotforms/icelandcharts.pdf

 

[unreal]

I can't afford Jeppesen, but all these people keep telling me there is something special about them and I should get used to and be more familiar with Jeppesen. It's getting old. I'm gonna use the cheap stuff for as long as I can, along with my $2.99 watch, and $5.99 polarized sunglasses from Walgreen's. Along with my fast food joint napkin stash in case I run out of TP, every so often ....... ! What's the point of spending money you don't have. I figure if I can pass the instrument written, I can probably handle learning how to read a different publishers format for terminal procedures.

Dumb post, maybe, but man this argument is old.

I hear ya. I can't afford Jepps either, so I have to use/teach NACO. I still do prefer Jepps because of their easy to use layout, but once you learn how NACO charts are put together, they're not all that bad. Just get used to flipping around the book for random pieces of information. I suggest getting a binder for them as well, and make sure you get the charts that have holes in the top, not the ones that are bound. Makes life a lot easier.

 

[minitour]

With the change to the newer, white paper by NACO, the only thing the Jepps have over them now is the convenience factor. By that, I mean if the ALS is out, I know what my minimums are immediately without flipping through the book.

This, of course, may be offset by that little white envelope I get every two weeks. If my tablet PC worked as advertised, I'd just have the electronic charts, but I need to have the paper so when the screen goes blank it doesn't take me an hour to figure out where I'm at and get new charts printed up.

I too like and recommend the loose leaf NACO books, but it amazes me at the differences in sales...the bound books sell out where the loose leaf books don't come close.

Weird.

-mini

 

[woutlaw]

I do prefer the Jepp low-altitude enroute charts to the NACOs. Something about the size and tabbed format that makes them easier to deal with.

Of course, since I usually fly in the midwest, always file /G and get direct 99% of the time I rarely use an enroute anyway.

The approach charts are a wash in my book. NACO, Jepp, doesn't matter much either way once you get used to either of 'em. Particuarly with the newer NACO format that's similar to Jepp.

One thing I like about NACO over Jepp is the little airport diagram inset on every approach plate and the arrow depicting the final approach course, which helps a bit with orientation when going visual.

And yes, I don't understand why people buy the bound NACO charts over the loose-leaf versions either. The bound ones are a PITA.

The nice thing about Jepp is that the three states I fly in the most (Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa) are in one volume. It takes three NACO volumes to cover the same area, which is a hassle.

 

[landlover]

save your money! you think for all the money it cost for jepps they would be more durable. i use both almost daily. my company has naco for the usa and jepp for the international stuff. it makes no difference!!!! both charts depict the same info in almost the same format. i like the naco because you dont have to deal with the toilet paper thickness and all the crap of a big binder. i personally liek the bound noca charts quicker acces and neater over time. the loose ones are a pain in the arse just like loose jepps.

 

[avbug]

I prefer jepp, and even when supplied NOS/NACO charts, I bought and carried my own Jepps. To each his own. Jepp is far more universal, far more widespread, and far more consistant. Someone who intends to go on to work in a professional cockpit, especially one outside the US, an airline cockpit, or one using electronic data, might do well to invest in the effort to learn and use Jepp.

 

[unreal]

Someone who intends to go on to work in a professional cockpit, especially one outside the US, an airline cockpit, or one using electronic data, might do well to invest in the effort to learn and use Jepp.

Right, that's what I keep hearing. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to use the Jepps, but they're just a bit too expensive to keep updated on CFI pay. If my students would like to buy them, keep them updated, and bring them with them for their lessons, I'm all for it.

 

[avbug]

They're not that expensive. In fact, if you compare a year of NACO or a year of jepps, they're about a wash for any given area. If you only want one specific book of the gov't charts, then the NACO are less expensive...but even as an instructor, I believe you're better off being familiar with both, and teaching both according to the needs or desires of the individual student.

Maintaining them isn't really an issue; the expense once you've made your initial purchase isn't that bad, and it's something you pay once a year (unless you keep buying trip kits).

Certain things in your job cost; your headset, your intercom, your varius flight gear, teaching materials...and possibly even your charts. Of course, if you can get the school to spring for them...

I always preferred to get my own. The binders can be had for a song today on ebay or other places, and having your own charts means they go with you when you're not instructing. You can take them to your next job, when doing side jobs, etc, and you're already familiar with what is largely the woldwide industry standard chart.

 

[landlover]

Someone who intends to go on to work in a professional cockpit, especially one outside the US, an airline cockpit, or one using electronic data, might do well to invest in the effort to learn and use Jepp.

sounds like soemone works for jepp, .

i mean really though, the transition can be made from jepp to noca and back again very easily. you don't need to pay for charts as a cfi. just tell your students to buy current charts. thats what i did. i used jepps all through training and thought i was a cool professional pilot, then i hit the real world and just used the charts the company buys.

 

[unreal]

you don't need to pay for charts as a cfi. just tell your students to buy current charts. thats what i did.

Would love to. Unfortunately, it's company policy for instructors to maintain current charts. I need a pay raise.

 

[avbug]

sounds like soemone works for jepp,

No, just someone who's been flyng and instructing for some time.

In my opinion, the overall jepp quality, and certainly customer service, has gone downhill over the years. I wouldn't want to work for them (wouldn't want to quit flying, either). They're still the most used, however, and they still
make a good product.

 

[NW_Pilot]

I prefer jepp, and even when supplied NOS/NACO charts, I bought and carried my own Jepps. To each his own. Jepp is far more universal, far more widespread, and far more consistant. Someone who intends to go on to work in a professional cockpit, especially one outside the US, an airline cockpit, or one using electronic data, might do well to invest in the effort to learn and use Jepp.

I agree Avbug!! Jepp is the way to go you said about what I did above!

 

[NW_Pilot]

No, just someone who's been flyng and instructing for some time.

In my opinion, the overall jepp quality, and certainly customer service, has gone downhill over the years. I wouldn't want to work for them (wouldn't want to quit flying, either). They're still the most used, however, and they still
make a good product.

Yea, you call them for charts they never call back!!!! Sure if I was a 135 operator they would call me back asap!!!

 

[JediNein]

I like the fact that Jepp will put the frequency and ident of the VOR that is just on the next page on the current page. No flipping the chart to figure out the next VOR then back, until it is time to flip the chart.

I like not having to check NOTAMs from 6 months ago when the FAA made a change to the chart and didn't update the NACO charts. Jepp generally gets those changes in within 2 weeks. There's been many times when my NACO chart user client hasn't checked NOTAMs and my Jepp chart has different minimums.

Jepp's Quality and customer service have gone downhill since Boeing bought 'em again. Hopefully they'll regain them once Boeing sells them, again.

The NACO cost is within $2.00 of Jepp's Airway Manual Express to have the same charts. So whatdya want? Check NOTAMs for everything, or have a really good chance of having current information when you're diverting to an unplanned alternate?

 

[landlover]

I like the fact that Jepp will put the frequency and ident of the VOR that is just on the next page on the current page. No flipping the chart to figure out the next VOR then back, until it is time to flip the chart.

I like not having to check NOTAMs from 6 months ago when the FAA made a change to the chart and didn't update the NACO charts. Jepp generally gets those changes in within 2 weeks. There's been many times when my NACO chart user client hasn't checked NOTAMs and my Jepp chart has different minimums.

Jepp's Quality and customer service have gone downhill since Boeing bought 'em again. Hopefully they'll regain them once Boeing sells them, again.

The NACO cost is within $2.00 of Jepp's Airway Manual Express to have the same charts. So whatdya want? Check NOTAMs for everything, or have a really good chance of having current information when you're diverting to an unplanned alternate?

i believe the comair crew that crashed in kentucky had a "current" jepp chart that was out dated. while the noca chart was up to speed.

 

[avbug]

i believe the comair crew that crashed in kentucky had a "current" jepp chart that was out dated. while the noca chart was up to speed.

Your point is exactly what?

The use of instrument charts had nothing to do with lining up on the wrong runway, current or not current, NACO or Jepp...really made no difference. The crew selected the wrong runway and failed to verify it despite ample resources and opportunities to do so. The presence, or use, or type of chart in use in that case is really irrelevant.

Perhaps of some interest might be the use of different chart types which, while having nothing to do with the event itself, is an unwise and potentially unsafe practice of it's own accord.

How does one have a "current" chart that is "outdated?" It's either one or the other...not both. If you mean the information is outdated...no, the chart did not supply information saying the runway was longer than it was...the crew failed to perform basic checks and took off on the wrong runway, period. Latet minute changes to lighting data wouldn't have saved them from their own failure to perform basic proceedures, such as verifying that they were on the correct runway before departure.

 

[landlover]

Your point is exactly what?

The use of instrument charts had nothing to do with lining up on the wrong runway, current or not current, NACO or Jepp...really made no difference. The crew selected the wrong runway and failed to verify it despite ample resources and opportunities to do so. The presence, or use, or type of chart in use in that case is really irrelevant.

Perhaps of some interest might be the use of different chart types which, while having nothing to do with the event itself, is an unwise and potentially unsafe practice of it's own accord.

How does one have a "current" chart that is "outdated?" It's either one or the other...not both. If you mean the information is outdated...no, the chart did not supply information saying the runway was longer than it was...the crew failed to perform basic checks and took off on the wrong runway, period. Latet minute changes to lighting data wouldn't have saved them from their own failure to perform basic proceedures, such as verifying that they were on the correct runway before departure.

avbug you need to read what i quoted again. jedi nein was saying that jepps get updated more often. all i did was point out that this was infact not 100% true and may have contributed to an accident. i know that was not the only reason that rj crashed, but like many aircraft accidents, many many small things happen to make a real big bad accident. the jepp airport diagram for lexington had a mis-labled taxi way if i remember correctly. anyone can see how this can contribute to a mistake.

 

[JediNein]

jedi nein was saying that jepps get updated more often. all i did was point out that this was infact not 100% true

Last I checked "a really good chance" doesn't equal "100%". Jepps are still updated more frequently than NACOs. Jepp's business depends on it, NACO has 14 guys doing the job (2003 numbers - might be 12 guys now).

I teach my students to set the heading bug to the runway heading before departure and if they don't line up, get off the runway and figure out why. I've been doing this since my first instructor showed me the trick. Sometimes all you learn from an accident is validation of your procedures.

 

[avbug]

Jedi Nein cited NOTAMS for currency, and jepp has a better system for updating via the notams, as well as more frequent chart updates; that's a fact.

The introduction of the Lexington incident however, is nonsensical; the crew did not take off from an improperly charted taxiway. They took off from a runway that was too short and for which they were not cleared, contrary to their own performance data, despite having two pilots and multiple references to determine their heading and the runway in use. They failed a basic duty...no pathetic attempt to pawn that off on a chart, a tower controller, or anybody or anything else changes the fact that the crew in failing to do their duty killed everyone.

Your effort at clouding that issue by introducing it out of context to an unrelated discusson helps no one. Remember that.