Jeppesen / NACO, ? WHO CARES!

[landlover]

I like the fact that Jepp will put the frequency and ident of the VOR that is just on the next page on the current page. No flipping the chart to figure out the next VOR then back, until it is time to flip the chart.

I like not having to check NOTAMs from 6 months ago when the FAA made a change to the chart and didn't update the NACO charts. Jepp generally gets those changes in within 2 weeks. There's been many times when my NACO chart user client hasn't checked NOTAMs and my Jepp chart has different minimums.

Jepp's Quality and customer service have gone downhill since Boeing bought 'em again. Hopefully they'll regain them once Boeing sells them, again.

The NACO cost is within $2.00 of Jepp's Airway Manual Express to have the same charts. So whatdya want? Check NOTAMs for everything, or have a really good chance of having current information when you're diverting to an unplanned alternate?

i believe the comair crew that crashed in kentucky had a "current" jepp chart that was out dated. while the noca chart was up to speed.

 

[avbug]

i believe the comair crew that crashed in kentucky had a "current" jepp chart that was out dated. while the noca chart was up to speed.

Your point is exactly what?

The use of instrument charts had nothing to do with lining up on the wrong runway, current or not current, NACO or Jepp...really made no difference. The crew selected the wrong runway and failed to verify it despite ample resources and opportunities to do so. The presence, or use, or type of chart in use in that case is really irrelevant.

Perhaps of some interest might be the use of different chart types which, while having nothing to do with the event itself, is an unwise and potentially unsafe practice of it's own accord.

How does one have a "current" chart that is "outdated?" It's either one or the other...not both. If you mean the information is outdated...no, the chart did not supply information saying the runway was longer than it was...the crew failed to perform basic checks and took off on the wrong runway, period. Latet minute changes to lighting data wouldn't have saved them from their own failure to perform basic proceedures, such as verifying that they were on the correct runway before departure.

 

[landlover]

Your point is exactly what?

The use of instrument charts had nothing to do with lining up on the wrong runway, current or not current, NACO or Jepp...really made no difference. The crew selected the wrong runway and failed to verify it despite ample resources and opportunities to do so. The presence, or use, or type of chart in use in that case is really irrelevant.

Perhaps of some interest might be the use of different chart types which, while having nothing to do with the event itself, is an unwise and potentially unsafe practice of it's own accord.

How does one have a "current" chart that is "outdated?" It's either one or the other...not both. If you mean the information is outdated...no, the chart did not supply information saying the runway was longer than it was...the crew failed to perform basic checks and took off on the wrong runway, period. Latet minute changes to lighting data wouldn't have saved them from their own failure to perform basic proceedures, such as verifying that they were on the correct runway before departure.

avbug you need to read what i quoted again. jedi nein was saying that jepps get updated more often. all i did was point out that this was infact not 100% true and may have contributed to an accident. i know that was not the only reason that rj crashed, but like many aircraft accidents, many many small things happen to make a real big bad accident. the jepp airport diagram for lexington had a mis-labled taxi way if i remember correctly. anyone can see how this can contribute to a mistake.

 

[JediNein]

jedi nein was saying that jepps get updated more often. all i did was point out that this was infact not 100% true

Last I checked "a really good chance" doesn't equal "100%". Jepps are still updated more frequently than NACOs. Jepp's business depends on it, NACO has 14 guys doing the job (2003 numbers - might be 12 guys now).

I teach my students to set the heading bug to the runway heading before departure and if they don't line up, get off the runway and figure out why. I've been doing this since my first instructor showed me the trick. Sometimes all you learn from an accident is validation of your procedures.

 

[avbug]

Jedi Nein cited NOTAMS for currency, and jepp has a better system for updating via the notams, as well as more frequent chart updates; that's a fact.

The introduction of the Lexington incident however, is nonsensical; the crew did not take off from an improperly charted taxiway. They took off from a runway that was too short and for which they were not cleared, contrary to their own performance data, despite having two pilots and multiple references to determine their heading and the runway in use. They failed a basic duty...no pathetic attempt to pawn that off on a chart, a tower controller, or anybody or anything else changes the fact that the crew in failing to do their duty killed everyone.

Your effort at clouding that issue by introducing it out of context to an unrelated discusson helps no one. Remember that.

 

[momalley81]

Honestly, if you're instructing, I don't think it's that big a deal. NACO charts are just as good as the Jepps. I "learned" how to read jepps while in Lear initial. Took me about 5 minutes.

Now, do I find myself hunting for some info every now and then? Sure. Flew with the government crap for 8 years, been using Jepps for all of 3 months now.

I just can't agree with this attitude of "get used to using Jepps now if you want to be a professional pilot" Use what the boss is buying; if you have to pay for 'em, it's the same information, use whatever is cheaper, or what you're used to.

FWIW, I've never heard of anyone not getting a job because all they used before were NACO charts. Shoot, I know of more than a few professional flight departments that use, <GASP> government charts too.

 

[avbug]

Ever carry and use the change book with NACO's? Ever consult the jepp chart notams before each flight?

Jepp puts out a full volume explaining their charts, and has a full course available for those willing to take the time to learn. Of course, with five minutes training and three months experience, you know all about that.

Yes, I've seen people fail interviews based on their inexperience with charts, among many other reasons.

 

[momalley81]

Ever carry and use the change book with NACO's? Ever consult the jepp chart notams before each flight?

Jepp puts out a full volume explaining their charts, and has a full course available for those willing to take the time to learn. Of course, with five minutes training and three months experience, you know all about that.

Yes, I've seen people fail interviews based on their inexperience with charts, among many other reasons.

Yes, at my previous company we were issued them as they were issued. Yes, we used NACO instead of Jepps because that's what the company issued.

And yes, I also get to review the chart NOTAMS too; not before each flight, but I do pull them for the trip books, and "familiarize" myself when I do the 4 sets of revisions every two weeks.

Now, did these people fail interviews because they couldn't read Jepps? Or were they not able to read ANY instrument charts? I never claimed to be an expert on Jepps, my point is that if you're familiar with what you're using, the transition should be fairly straight forward.

The only time it was ever even brought up in an interview with me was when I was asked what kind of charts I was currently using. And then being told, "well, don't worry about it; the Jepps are easier and more user-friendly anyway" I'd have to question any kind of organization that would fail to hire someone who was otherwise a good fit because they couldn't read a chart format that they didn't use.

 

[8inMan]

Most importantly, know the ones that you use no matter which kind they are. They both give you the information you need, just in a slightly different format. I personally use bound NOS charts because that is what the company supplies. They are very sturdy and they work well in our particular environment. The chart book for our home airport tends to wear out pretty quickly, but its usually not a problem because you get all new ones every 2 months. I'm sure there are places where the Jepps are much better and I look forward to using them if I ever do any flying overseas.