JBLU in hot water with FAA

[Lake Alice]

Alice, I undestand how you feel. I would be embarassed as hell after my 190 w2..I mean cleaning a cabin...no wait ...signing a contract...no .. I really mean watching 29 of my peers make us look like fools to the rest of the pilots in the industry.

But you're right. Given the above, not much else needs to be said.

JP4loser,

Oh yeah, thats right, you couldn't even get a real airline job. You and your opinion dont even count. Simply put your an after thought. A burp, a fart, something you avoid discussing in public because it A WASTE OF TIME.

As for the rest, Jetblue is just a job. Pick on the company all you want, like most its run by morons. The reason I and most are bothered by this is because we are lumped into the same category as the idiot senior guys who agreed to this and the management who thinks this is a good idea.

The guys on this board didnt ask for this, participate in it or condone it. Like most we are stuck in a job living day by day until something better comes along. If you truly think the overwhelming majority of Jetblue pilots think this was a good idea then I can't call you anything other than stupid and clueless. The very people you are accusing of being in favor are the same guys/glas that were on your property just a few years ago.

Jetblue management perpetrated this, with or without FAA consent, yet the pilots, many of which weren't even on the property, are stuck dealing with the aftermath.

 

[Lake Alice]

Can't wait to get a JB jumpseater to bring this up with.

Get a union or grow a pair, don't let this start.

It's not going to lead to better QOL as mgmt isn't going to let us all have 18 days off, no they're going to up our Monthly credits to 100+ hours.

If this is Neelman's money-saving follow-up to their regional-like 190 rates then he can go to hell. Listen buddy, you grew too fast and that "irrational competition" you whined about was actually you and your $39 Boston shuttle fares. Don't take it out on your pilot group that apparently doesn't know any better.

Once again a brilliant post.

 

[relief tube]

so what was so idiotic about that post Alice?

JB Mgmt is slowing growth to prove they grew too fast, it's in black and white that your 190 payrates are on the regional level, and on jetblue.com the intro fares out of Newburgh to Florida are only $160 roundtrip! That to me is about unrational as it gets, I can't drive there for that price.

 

[Lake Alice]

Can't wait to get a JB jumpseater to bring this up with.

Get a union or grow a pair, don't let this start.

It's not going to lead to better QOL as mgmt isn't going to let us all have 18 days off, no they're going to up our Monthly credits to 100+ hours.

If this is Neelman's money-saving follow-up to their regional-like 190 rates then he can go to hell. Listen buddy, you grew too fast and that "irrational competition" you whined about was actually you and your $39 Boston shuttle fares. Don't take it out on your pilot group that apparently doesn't know any better.

Ok sunshine. Let me know when you are flying next and I will come sit on your jumpseat so we can "discuss" this issue. While we are at it we can also discuss ALPA and what the unions have done for us with furloughs and pay cuts. Also, since your management is so great we can discuss the pros and cons of those issues as well and how to make management more effective. Better yet, why dont you just give me your number and we can hash this out over the phone.

Think before you post. Do you actually think we agree with what Jetblue is doing? Given the over 70 percent of pilots who were furloughed or came from another union carrier don't you think we have thought of unionizing? Again, I can't stress to you to please think before you post.

 

[JP4user]

Oh yeah, thats right, you couldn't even get a real airline job. You and your opinion dont even count. Simply put your an after thought. A burp, a fart, something you avoid discussing in public because it A WASTE OF TIME.

Couldn't get a real airline job? As if JB and your company is classified as a real airline job? But lets compare. Are you talking about the real airline job that I left early with a large lump sum intact, that paid full disability until 60, that paid excellent medical benefits, that didn't require us to clean cabins, that didn't pay 50 seat wages for flying a 190, that didn't make us sign a contract to continue our employment? Is that the one you speak of and are comparing?

As for the rest, Jetblue is just a job. Pick on the company all you want, like most its run by morons. The reason I and most are bothered by this is because we are lumped into the same category as the idiot senior guys who agreed to this and the management who thinks this is a good idea.

OK, at least you're honest but what are you going to do about it? Do you actually think that another stunt of this magnitude will not be tried again? Do you actually think that if you raise enough hell about it you will get renewed with your contract?

The guys on this board didnt ask for this, participate in it or condone it. Like most we are stuck in a job living day by day until something better comes along. If you truly think the overwhelming majority of Jetblue pilots think this was a good idea then I can't call you anything other than stupid and clueless.

Try again Alice. Several have come on here to defend this experiment with one even admiting in it's participation. Although it seeems like you are actually seeing the light of how your comrades have made you all look like idiots in this industry. I asked a question earlier no one could answer. What if the fools participating in this experiment had an incident? Do you realize the jeopardy they would of placed all of you in from a legal standpoint. The lawyers would of had a field day with that one.

The very people you are accusing of being in favor are the same guys/glas that were on your property just a few years ago.

Then they are hopeless kool aid drinkers making all of you look like fools. The difference is, on my property back then we had some morals and pride in our careers. For example cleaning a cabin? We are professional pilots, not non english speaking illegal immigrants. Signing a contract? Well, not an employment contract but one that would prevent us from enduring faa violations from experiments cooked up by some blowhards looking to maximize their pay or arrogant managers wanting to squeeze a few more dollars fro their pockets.

Jetblue management perpetrated this, with or without FAA consent, yet the pilots, many of which weren't even on the property, are stuck dealing with the aftermath.

What you fail to understand or admit is charades like this is becoming the norm over there which is why the stench of disdain is heaped upon all of you. The very limited outcry sends a signal that you Blue boys do condone all of the above behavior and practices.

But at least you now classify that place as a job and not a career. You're making good progress Alice.

 

[Lake Alice]

blah, blah, blah, fart!

 

[JP4user]

blah, blah, blah, fart!

Sounds just like your current job.

 

[Longhorn]

Get the thread back on track please!!

 

[JBFlyer]

"The weekend Journal article on pilot fatigue testing has caused a bit of a black eye for the company. It collected data on pilot alertness levels during extra-long shifts from more than 50 passenger flights during May 2005. While the company received approval from the local New York FAA office, which usually handles such local matters, it did not obtain approval from national FAA headquarters. This caused problems when critics of the controversial testing pointed this out to headquarters, which then reprimanded JetBlue management for not seeking approval on what is known to be a contentious industry issue.
Ultimately, though, the issue boils down to union politics. JetBlue, being non-unionized, only has to deal with FAA regulations which specify eight-hour shifts for pilots, while many union contracts for competitors like American Airlines (NYSE: AMR) and United (Nasdaq: UAUA) specify lower limits for pilot shifts. Therefore, JetBlue would be economically advantaged to push for longer shifts. It is no small surprise that union officials brought the testing to senior FAA officials' attention, because if the experiment proves a success, unions will be forced to loosen their restrictive contracts with little economic benefits in return. For JetBlue investors, it might be wise to look beyond the rhetoric and offer a small grin as management continues to do what it has since inception -- break many of the airline industry's traditional rules, in many cases with great"


Just a little support to my thoughts of what drove this issue being made into a mountain. I'm not the only one who thinks this. Flame away !

 

[FDJ2]

Who wrote that piece? Obviously JBLU's agenda boils down to cost savings.

It all boils down to safety, is it safer to extend crew duty limits in order to get more flying out of a pilot or is it safer to seek more restrictive standards.

 

[JBFlyer]

Who wrote that piece? Obviously JBLU's agenda boils down to cost savings.

It all boils down to safety, is it safer to extend crew duty limits in order to get more flying out of a pilot or is it safer to seek more restrictive standards.

The piece came from the "Motely Fool", take it for what it's worth. Yes, I agree with you that JB is looking for cost savings...who isn't these days. I also agree that the safety side of this issue must be looked at hard, but I'm not gonna make assumptions that this look at extending crew flying time limits a little is a bad thing. Just wanted to point out that there was/is an underlying agenda out there that brought out this issue.

 

[FDJ2]

Just wanted to point out that there was/is an underlying agenda out there that brought out this issue.

You can't bring out an issue that doesn't exist. The issue wasn't created out of thin air. The flights were conducted on scheduled flights with paying customers onboard that were unaware that they just purchased a ticket on an "experimental" flight. If the unions shined a light on this, well then good for them.

I think we can all be thankful that it was flushed out.

 

[FoxHunter]

Just a few points. If it is legal it does not make it safe. If it is not legal it does not make it unsafe. The FAA says I can report for duty at 1 am and stay on duty 16 hours and be safe. I cannot report at 9 am, after a good night of sleep fly 11 hours block with 12:30 duty with a two pilot crew. If I happen to be flying in a aircraft with two pilots and a F/E outside the 48 states I can fly 12 hours block in a 24 hour period. Most of the world has rules that change depending on the time of day, the FAA is living back in the dark ages.

Flying Tigers had a LAX DC8 trip that flew LAX-HNL-LAX. Was it legal? Yes. Was it safe? Yes. Did either ALPA or the pilots object? No. It was probably the most senior trip in the base because it flew almost 11 hours a day and you had to work 7 days a month.

Now we have a big flap over JB trying to prove that JFK-West Coast-JFK is reasonable and safe. My guess the answer to both is yes.

 

[Capn Mike]

The flights were conducted on scheduled flights with paying customers onboard that were unaware that they just purchased a ticket on an "experimental" flight. If the unions shined a light on this, well then good for them.

Do the airlines notify the paying customers each time that they are flying on a "training" flight which is being flown for IOE???

Yes, it is legal, but some people might not want to be onboard if they knew.

 

[Zipperhead]

What's the big deal,,,3 person crews do this all the time..and their were three pilots in the cockpit on these flights...big deal,,,yawn

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Hey guys, the Chicago White Sox just won the 2005 World Series!!! And this was 6 months after the test flights began for Jetblue-- old news, lets move on to another thread!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

CNN is running the story.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Observations:

1. The "FAA" said the test was ok! Ha! That controller in your jumpseat on an observation flight works for the FAA, and actually contols aircraft speed assignments for the FAA Administrator. Next time you've got one onboard, ask him/her if you can tear-ass thru a Class B at 400kts. If they say yes, you can break the rules with exactly the same "authorization" as JBLU did with this test.

2. The issue is "union politics". Ha! The issue is breaking the rules. The whistleblower ain't breaking the rules. The ALPA motto is "Schedule with Safety". It appears somebody at ALPA figured out JBLU was breaking the rules sooner than the management dudes at JBLU figured it out. That's not politics. That's better S.A. If you don't like getting turned-in by one of those icky pilot unions...Don't Break The Rules!

3. It's safe to fly 12-hours un-augmented. Who knows? The point here is you gotta get Dad's permission before you can break curfew. Uncle Charlie's permission isn't good enough.

4. There was a third pilot onboard. Un-huh...probably grooming the cabin inflight to shave time off the turn in Long Beach.

5. ALPA is useless. To some, I suppose. But right now there are a few JBLU management toads who should join ALPA so at least they have access to aviation professionals who actually know the rules.

6. You meanies are picking on Jet Blue! Puh-leese! JBLU gets bashed on this Forum about as equally as other entities. You want unconditional love? Call your mom.

 

[G4G5]

David Neeleman, "certainly if we had to do it again we would have asked for (FAA) headquarters approval"

When asked by CNBC Phil Lebeau upon landing at ORD

 

[MECH]

more information on rest rules

Here are the FAR's from Australia. They are alot more restrictive then ours. Maybe it is time for a complete rewrite of our flight time and duty time limitations.

1 LIMITATIONS WHERE THE FLIGHT CREW INCLUDES NOT MORE THAN 2 PILOTS FOR OTHER THAN AERIAL AGRICULTURAL OPERATIONS​

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1.1 Each pilot of an aircraft in which the flight crew includes not more than 2 pilots engaged in other than aerial agricultural operations shall be subject to the limitations specified in these Orders.
1.2 A tour of duty or period of reserve time at home shall be preceded by a rest period on the ground of at least:
(a) 9 consecutive hours embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time; or
(b) 10 consecutive hours.
1.2.1 Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1.2 of this subsection, when an aircraft is scheduled to arrive at such a time that the pilots would be free of duty not later than 10 pm local time and the aircraft delayed beyond that time, the 9 hour rest period prescribed may be commenced up to 11 pm local time, provided the succeeding tour of duty does not exceed 6 hours.
1.3 An operator shall not roster a pilot for a tour of duty in excess of 11 hours.
1.4 An operator shall not roster a pilot to fly in excess of 8 hours flight time in any 1 tour of duty.
1.5 A tour of duty already commenced in accordance with paragraph 1.3 of this subsection may be extended to 12 hours.
1.6 The flight time in a tour of duty already commenced in accordance with paragraph 1.4 of this subsection may be extended to 9 hours.
1.7 Where extensions have been made in accordance with paragraph 1.5 of this subsection a pilot shall receive a rest period on the ground of not less than:
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Issue 9: 8 December 2004 Amdt No. 29 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]SECTION 48.1 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]-2- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Issue 9
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman](a) 9 consecutive hours which shall include the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time, plus 1 additional hour for each 15 minutes or part thereof by which his or her tour of duty time exceeded 11 hours; or
(b) 10 consecutive hours plus 1 additional hour for each 15 minutes or part thereof by which his or her tour of duty time exceeded 11 hours.
1.8 Where extensions have been made in accordance with paragraph 1.6 of this subsection a pilot shall receive a rest period on the ground of not less than:
(a) 9 consecutive hours which shall include the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time, plus 1 additional hour for each 15 minutes or part thereof by which his or her flight time exceeded 8 hours; or
(b) 10 consecutive hours plus 1 additional hour for each 15 minutes or part thereof by which his or her flight time exceeded 8 hours.
1.9 Where a tour of duty already commenced in accordance with paragraphs 1.3 and 1.4 of this subsection exceeds 12 hours or the flight time exceeds 9 hours the pilot shall have, at the completion of the tour of duty, a rest period of at least 24 consecutive hours.
1.10 Where a pilot has completed 2 consecutive tours of duty, the aggregate of which exceeds 8 hours flight time or 11 hours duty time, and the intervening rest period is less than:
(a) 12 consecutive hours embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time; or
(b) 24 consecutive hours, if not embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time;
he or she shall have a rest period on the ground of at least 12 consecutive hours embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am local time or 24 consecutive hours, prior to commencing a further tour of duty.
1.11 Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1.10 of this subsection, when an aircraft is scheduled to arrive at such a time that the pilot would be free of duty not later than 10 pm local time and the aircraft is delayed beyond that time, the 12 hour rest period prescribed in paragraph 1.10 may be commenced up to 11 pm provided that the succeeding tour of duty does not exceed 6 hours.
1.12 A pilot shall not commence a flight and an operator shall not roster the pilot for a flight unless during the 7 days period terminating co-incident with the termination of the flight he or she has been relieved from all duty associated with his or her employment for at least 1 continuous period embracing the hours between 10 pm and 6 am on 2 consecutive nights.
1.13 An operator shall not roster a pilot to fly when completion of the flight will result in the pilot exceeding 90 hours of duty of any nature associated with his or her employment in each fortnight standing alone. For the purpose of this paragraph, duties associated with a pilot’s employment include reserve time at the airport, tours of duty, dead head transportation, administrative duties and all forms of ground training. The operator shall designate the day on which the first of the fortnightly periods shall start.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Issue 9: 8 December 2004 Amdt No. 29 -3- [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]SECTION 48.1 [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Issue 9
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]1.14 A pilot shall not fly and an operator shall not roster him or her to fly as a flight crew member in excess of 900 hours in 365 consecutive days.
1.15 A pilot shall not fly and an operator shall not roster him or her to fly in excess of 100 hours in 30 consecutive days.
1.16 A pilot shall not fly and an operator shall not roster him or her to fly in excess of 30 hours in 7 consecutive days.
1.17 Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 1.3, 1.4 and 1.10 of this subsection, a charter or aerial work operator may roster a pilot to fly an aircraft of less than 5 700 kg maximum take-off weight, and a pilot may fly such an aircraft, in operations other than I.F.R. operations during a tour of duty in excess of 11 hours but not exceeding 15 hours, subject to the following provisions:
(a) the operator shall ensure that a period of not less than 4 consecutive hours, during which the pilot shall be free of all duties associated with his or her employment, is available to the pilot within the tour of duty.
(b) the operator shall not roster a pilot to fly, and a pilot shall not fly, 2 consecutive tours of duty each of which is in excess of 11 hours unless a rest period of at least 24 hours is provided at the conclusion of the first tour of duty.
(c) the operator shall not roster a pilot and a pilot shall not fly for more than 2 tours of duty each in excess of 11 hours within 6 consecutive days.
(d) the operator shall not roster a pilot and a pilot shall not fly for more than 6 hours of flight instruction on any tour of duty which is in excess of 11 hours.
[/FONT]

 

[Spectre]

Do the airlines notify the paying customers each time that they are flying on a "training" flight which is being flown for IOE???

Yes, it is legal, but some people might not want to be onboard if they knew.

Yeah, pushing buttons on that PDA-like machine in an experiment was a very unsafe undertaking. One that required a third pilot. Imagine if pilots were to read magazines or newspapers in the cockpit? What if some used I-pods and computers in the cockpit too? Shame on them.

 

[Spectre]

Gee, JB is so popular. Over 200 posts over some study that was done over a year ago on fatigue. Fatigue had absolutely nothing to do about that ComAir taking off an unlit runway. Why study it.

I hope the media finds more trash on JetBlue as it sure helps the company's stock price. Up 20% in one week eh?

 

[JP4user]

I hope the media finds more trash on JetBlue as it sure helps the company's stock price. Up 20% in one week eh?

Trash and JetBlue in one sentence. How appropriate.

 

[Longhorn]

Lets not go down that road again....please

 

[A350]

Occam.....

Oh yes....you can tear through the class b at 400 kts...at IAH whilst conducting a "test" for the FAA.....

JB made the mistake of not going to the "higher" ups which was the province of their POI. When JB talks to the POI, they are talking to the FAA. There is a chain of command. Is JB blameless in this, no.

A350

 

[Spectre]

Trash and JetBlue in one sentence. How appropriate.

JetBlue is the BEST domesitic air carrier for the 5th year in a row. Wow, best domestic air carrier and JetBlue all in one sentence. How appropriate.

Yawn...

 

[sandman2122]

Spectre seems to care about nothing but stock prices and $$$$$.

He's sounding pretty defensive - probably was one of the 29 - hoping the FAA doesn't send him a letter! Bet you guys wish you sent in a NASA form last year! Don't worry, with all the $$$ you're making it'll pay for a good attorney.



This is fun!

 

[elag777]

Trash and JetBlue in one sentence. How appropriate.

JP4user and "tool" sononomous

 

[3BCat]

Transcripts!

Since this thread is pretty well based in wild speculation, I thought I would throw in some official looking stuff. Transcripts!! Identify the target before you shoot your gun. Enjoy.



Wall Street Journal: JetBlue, according to FAA, didn't seek a formal waiver before the fatigue experiment. Comment?
JetBlue response: The FAA permitted the data collection flights to be operated under supplemental flight rules. We disagree with the “fatigue experiment” characterization – this was a data collection exercise.

WSJ: Finally, we have a passenger advocate, David Stempler of the Air Travelers Association, saying he doesn't quibble with your quest for data, but says you never should have done this test with paying passengers on board. Should have done it with empty planes. Comment?
JetBlue response: JetBlue gathered data; it is not accurate or fair to say we conducted a “test.” We collected this data from flights that were operated under supplemental flight rules – and the FAA permitted this collection of data under these circumstances.
Supplemental flight rules are used regularly by most airlines, and are rightly considered safe and appropriate.
Safety is our bedrock value – it is the fundamental promise we make, and keep, to our customers and crewmembers.

WSJ: Was jetblue worried about the test exposing the airline to any legal risk/liability? some aviation lawyers might think passengers would have had a decent case if they had known and decided to sue the airline.
JetBlue response: Let’s be clear and accurate: These were not “test” flight. These were JetBlue flights that the FAA permitted to be conducted under supplemental regulations. Supplemental flight rules are used regularly by most airlines, and are rightly considered safe and appropriate.

CNN: As for JetBlue's program, what was average number of hours flown by pilots during those approximately 50 flights, and what was the longest time flown? The WSJ says JetBlue assigned the crews to work longer shifts in the cockpit -- as many as 10 to 11 hours a day? Is that correct? Did anyone fly 12 hours?
JETBLUE: All pilots who participated, did so voluntarily and with advance knowledge of the flight times. The schedules flown by the pilots were either 9 hours and 30 minutes within a 24-hour period, or 10 hours and 35 minutes – again, within a 24 hour period. (Not 10:35 in one flight – 10:35 over the course of a flying day.) Either way, each flight day was preceded AND followed by a minimum of 32 hours and 25 minutes of rest.

CNN: Finally, I understand that JetBlue planned to gather real time performance data during routine transcontinental flights -- and then planned to gather data during new fatigue reducing schedules. What can you tell me about that? Did it ever get to the point of gathering data during the new fatigue reducing schedules? Does it still plan to do so?
JETBLUE: JetBlue gathered data from pilots working on “standard flight rule” transcontinental flights, and also gathered data from pilots operating under the FAA’s supplemental flight rules – and you are correct to call the supplemental flight rules schedules “fatigue reducing schedules.” JetBlue turned over all data to a third party for analysis, and the results of that study were subjected to scientific peer review, and will be published in December in the “Aviation, Space and Environmental Medicine” - the official scientific journal of the Aerospace Medical Association.
The purpose of our study is to find a way to reduce fatigue factors produced by standard schedules. One way to reduce these factors is through education and awareness. All pilots who participated in this study were required to complete an extensive training program on human fatigue and alertness management prior to their participation. That training is now required for ALL JetBlue pilots. We collected data in May 2005 to determine if our educational program has a demonstrative effect on reducing fatigue factors. The results of the analysis will be published in an academic journal for the benefit of everyone in the industry. To characterize this data collection as a “test” or “experiment” is ironic at best.

 

[Falconjet]

Lets see, they called it a "study" about ten times, but it wasn't an experiment or test.

Ok, whatever jB says must be true. Management never lies.

I find that ironic.

FJ