JBLU in hot water with FAA

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, why such hate for JB? Bashing JB management, from a DL employee, wow. Remind me again how much $ your perfect management team has allowed you to lose in the last 5 years? We were approved for the flights, they happened, and the program will probably never be approved. Let's move on, shall we...

Is it really JBLU bashing? Or a fact. BTW, JBLU didn't receive the proper authorization to create its on FARs, sorry if you can't understand that.

BTW, you won't find me applauding Leo Mullin and his merry gang of thieves.

I can understand your wanting to move on, it must be embarrassing.

 

[FDJ2]

What are you talking about? You want so badly to prove that JB is the devil that you make up your own crap. What FAR has JB violated? And why have we not been fined?

POI responsibilties. Notice no mention of authority to rewrite FARs

Principal Operations Inspector (POI). The FAA inspector assigned responsibility for overseeing all operational issues relative to a specific operator, such as training programs, operations specifications approval, and MEL approval.

The flights were apparently conducted under supplemental rules.

Sec. 121.503 - Flight time limitations: Pilots: airplanes.
(a) A certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during those eight hours.
(b) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 16 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
(c) Each certificate holder conducting supplemental operations shall relieve each pilot from all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during any seven consecutive days.
(d) No pilot may fly as a crewmember in air transportation more than 100 hours during any 30 consecutive days.
(e) No pilot may fly as a crewmember in air transportation more than 1,000 hours during any calendar year.
(f) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, the certificate holder may, in conducting a transcontinental nonstop flight, schedule a flight crewmember for more than eight but not more than 10 hours of continuous duty aloft without an intervening rest period, if --
(1) The flight is in an airplane with a pressurization system that is operative at the beginning of the flight;
(2) The flight crew consists of at least two pilots and a flight engineer; and
(3) The certificate holder uses, in conducting the operation, an air/ground communication service that is independent of systems operated by the United States, and a dispatch organization, both of which are approved by the Administrator as adequate to serve the terminal points concerned.


JBLU was REPRIMANDED had they complied withn the FARs there would have been no reprimand

 

[transpac]

JBLU was REPRIMANDED had they complied withn the FARs there would have been no reprimand

The FAA can reprimand an employee, but reprimanding a certificate holder is something I've never heard of. The only enforcement options for an air carrier that are listed in the Enforcement Handbook are Civil Penalty, Certificate Suspension/Revocation, and Letter of Correction.

 

[FDJ2]

When the FAA finds fault they cite or fine or open an investigation. /quote]

Or reprimand. Ooops, I guess you forgot that one.

 

[1st Overnite]

I wonder if the POI got a kickback for giving this his approval. Just a conspiracy theory.

If you don't want the day coast to coast followed by a night coast to coast, first, get a union and then a contract that won't allow that.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm astounded by the ignorance about the role of the POI and FSDO that's posted in this thread. The POI is not "just an Inspector" (whatever that means). The POI is the one person in the entire FAA bureaucracy who is delegated authority from the FAA Administrator to approve Operations Specifications and Operations Manuals for a particular carrier. IF Jet Blue held an Op Spec that allowed them to operate flights under supplemental rules and the Op Spec was signed by the POI, this case is closed.

Which supplemental rule allows greater than 8 hours of block for a two leg domestic operation? Can the POI rewrite regulations? Just asking.

 

[transpac]

When the FAA finds fault they cite or fine or open an investigation. /quote]

Or reprimand. Ooops, I guess you forgot that one.

I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

[FDJ2]

I have no clue what you're talking about.

"The FAA reprimanded JetBlue, ordered it to clarify procedures as well as flight manuals and Mr. Ballough personally chastised management."

 

[transpac]

Which supplemental rule allows greater than 8 hours of block for a two leg domestic operation? Can the POI rewrite regulations? Just asking.

Do you know that the flights in question were a "two leg domestic operation" of more than 8 hours? I sure don't. I do know that many if not most domestic operators hold supplemental specs for charters and other flights that aren't on a published schedule. I have no clue how Jet Blue can operate a regular scheduled flight under supplemental rules, but the definition of scheduled is not as straight forward as one might think.

 

[Lake Alice]

-FDJ2-

What a loser! The dude has spent the better part of the last few days trying to prove a useless, worthless argument. Get a life dork!

 

[transpac]

"The FAA reprimanded JetBlue, ordered it to clarify procedures as well as flight manuals and Mr. Ballough personally chastised management."

Apparently the reporter decided that Jet Blue had been reprimended. Jim Ballough has no authority to reprimand or impose any other sanction on an air carrier. If he thinks a violation occured, there is a legal process that must be followed and any punishment imposed is in the hands of FAA Legal, not Flight Standards. The truth is, no POI is going to authorize anything this controversial without the Regional Flight Standards Division Manager being on board. And, the region isn't going to be on board without first touching base with one Jim Ballough in Washington.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Let's see, passengers as guinea pigs? How about IOE-- if passengers knew that the pilot manipulating the controls was for the first time, how many would be getting on the jet?

 

[FDJ2]

-FDJ2-

What a loser! The dude has spent the better part of the last few days trying to prove a useless, worthless argument. Get a life dork!

Alice, it's real simple, just don't read it.

 

[Dizel8]

FDJ2, move on!

You continual reiteration of what penalties you think jetblue should be liable for, the incessant whinning about what a POI can or cannot do is getting a bit long in the tooth.

I can understand you are not a fan of the company, it shows, we get it, but please, just say what you think and be done with it!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, move on!

You continual reiteration of what penalties you think jetblue should be liable for, the incessant whinning about what a POI can or cannot do is getting a bit long in the tooth.

Um, when did I state anything about what I think JBLU should be liable for?
And I beg to differ, I'm not whinning about what a POI can or can't do, btw how do you whine about that, I'm simply pointing out a fact which many can't comprehend, that a POI can not rewrite the FARs. Now apparently JBLU's management has finally learned that simple lesson..

 

[Lake Alice]

Alice, it's real simple, just don't read it.

You are absolutely correct. Your witch hunts and lack of knowledge gives me a headache.

 

[FDJ2]

The truth is, no POI is going to authorize anything this controversial without the Regional Flight Standards Division Manager being on board. And, the region isn't going to be on board without first touching base with one Jim Ballough in Washington.

Apparently that didn't happen.

 

[FDJ2]

You are absolutely correct. Your witch hunts and lack of knowledge gives me a headache.

Take a midol Alice.

 

[General Lee]

You are absolutely correct. Your witch hunts and lack of knowledge gives me a headache.

I smell a coverup.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lake Alice]

So whats your point sunshine. Jetblue was not fined, was not violated, the pilots were not fined or violated. Essentialy they were given a talking to. I struggle to see what you are fishing for.

When you posted the original article it was mildly interesting considering this all took place 18 months ago. However, your incessant attempts to prove some sort of a point has most baffled.

Are you anti Jetblue? Is it a non-union issue? Is it the blue shirts or blue chips? I suspect most would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you would make your intentions clear.

 

[ReportCanoa]

The best part:

'The spokeswoman says there were no in-flight emergencies during the test period, and safety was never compromised because a third pilot was always on board to take the controls if needed'

Source- The Wall Street Journal

 

[FDJ2]

So whats your point sunshine. Jetblue was not fined, was not violated, the pilots were not fined or violated. Essentialy they were given a talking to. I struggle to see what you are fishing for.

When you posted the original article it was mildly interesting considering this all took place 18 months ago. However, your incessant attempts to prove some sort of a point has most baffled.

Are you anti Jetblue? Is it a non-union issue? Is it the blue shirts or blue chips? I suspect most would be willing to give you the benefit of the doubt if you would make your intentions clear.

Listen Alice, I simply posted an article that appeared on the front page of the WSJ.

Now a bunch of you Blue Dudes feel compelled to rush to your company's defense with some obvious misunderstandings. Your POI can not just rewrite the FARs for JBLUs "experiment". Obviously the FAA is embarassed, because someone at the regional level over stepped his authority and JBLU, whose managment should have known better, used the opportunity presented to try their little "experiment". Hence a reprimand of some sort and additional FAA scrutiny of JBLU's operations.

As far as which "rules" these flights were operated under, I' readily admit that I don't know everything there is to know about the intricacies of all the different "parts", "subparts" etc. of the FARs, perhaps one of you Blue Dudes could post exactly which FAR JBLU used to allow the carriage of passengers for a domestic flight in excess of 8 hours and what were the crew rest facilities?

 

[ultrarunner]

Caveman, you are dead wrong. If JB management thought they had the proper approval, then they have shown themselves to be incompetents.

The duty time regulations are verbatim from the FAR's, and are thus FEDERAL LAW. They can only be changed by Congress, or by the appropriate agency, at the highest level, after a specific administrative or judicial procedure (see the NPRM reference in an earlier post). This is true for ALL Federal agencies, not just the FAA.

Exactly..it would be like asking your POI permission to conduct CatII approaches before you actually had approval to do them.

Give me a break....

 

[Bat]

Guys,

Just hold all the judgement on what did or did not happen until the facts come out. I think what you will see happened is the a lot of people at the FAA were in fact very aware of what was going to happen long prior to the flights taking place. I know for a fact that even Ms. Blakey was briefed well in advance. I think what you are going to find out is that a a couple of people at the FAA disagreed with the approval of the data acquisition flights and were overridden by their bosses and when the reporters had an axe to grind, they just found the right people to help them turn the stone.

Dr. Rosekind did not respond to the reporter's questions becasue he can't respond until the study is published and peer review is completed. That should happen soon and then he will hopefully make comments.

 

[ableone]

So what FAR was violated? These flights were conducted under Part 121 Supplemental Flight Rules with a relief pilot onboard.

It was a regularly scheduled domestic flight segment between regular city pairs. It was not legal to simply reclassify it as a supplemental flight segment any more than it would be to reclassify it as a part 91 segment. The flights were in violation.

My carrier tried to get me to do the same thing and even put the feds on the phone. The feds said they thought it would be okay but when I asked them to put it in writing they balked. I did not go. The flight was cancelled.

I am actually a fan of Jet Blue but the flights were operated contrary to CFR 121

 

[FDJ2]

I think what you are going to find out is that a a couple of people at the FAA disagreed with the approval of the data acquisition flights and were overridden by their bosses and when the reporters had an axe to grind, they just found the right people to help them turn the stone.

That's an interesting theorey. Do you know if the flights were scheduled flights with passengers onboard and which regulations governed those flights and what the FAR crew duty time limitations are for those flights? Did the flights have a relief pilot, did the pilots rotate into the assigned rest seat and which seat was it? Since the flights were mostly cunducted during daylight was the crew rest seat darken by curtains?

 

[oldxfr8dog]

According to my friend over there, they HOPE the results of their tests are NOT leaked out. Especially the transcons with day sleeps and then back later that night. That info could change some regs. But hey, thanks for doing the study that confirmed everything we already knew, and some extra stuff the FAA didn't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

There's a lot of BS on these boards, but I believe you're right.
I doubt anything will change, though. Until somebody flies into the ground during a micro-sleep, that is.

 

[Gorilla]

The best part:

'The spokeswoman says there were no in-flight emergencies during the test period, and safety was never compromised because a third pilot was always on board to take the controls if needed'

Source- The Wall Street Journal

Yeah that third guy sitting on the jumpseat will have no problem quickly taking over on very short final, while the dog-tired CA and FO struggle with bad wx and/or a system problem. :erm:

"50, 40, 30...."
"Bill! Bill! You have the AC!! I am too fatigued!"

 

[oldxfr8dog]

There's a lot of BS on these boards, but I believe you're right.
I doubt anything will change, though. Until somebody flies into the ground during a micro-sleep, that is.

And I don't just mean JB. Every airline I've worked for had the same attitude.

 

[Dizel8]

Yeah that third guy sitting on the jumpseat will have no problem quickly taking over on very short final, while the dog-tired CA and FO struggle with bad wx and/or a system problem. :erm:

"50, 40, 30...."
"Bill! Bill! You have the AC!! I am too fatigued!"

You are right about the third crewmember, but do tell me, how is a 13hr duty day more fattiguing than a 16hr duty day? Heavens knows, that the current FAR's is capable of producing schedules than are horrific and that every day, people are flying such schedules, without the FAA or the WSJ batting an eye.

Case in point was the crash at Gitmo, a case study if you will, about the lack of common sense in fattigue cycles: http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR94-04.pdf

What would be more fattiguing, 8 hrs of flying, 6 landings and 16 hours on duty or 10hrs, 2 landings with 13 hrs of duty. I know which one I would choose!

If we look past the jetblue issue for a moment, maybe we could get a discussion going on what we might feel is a better set of FAR's wrt. duty and flightime limits. Personally, I think the JAR's are a vastly improved set of rules.