JBLU in hot water with FAA

[Capn Mike]

The FSDO doesn't have wiggle room, they are there to INFORCE the regs NOT help you re-write them to your likeing. The FAA doesn't have local branches set up just so folks can come in and change whatever FAR they don't like and despite what some may think, that's not the job of a POI. He is an INSPECTOR nothing more, nothing less.

No, the NPRM process is in place and a proper chain of command has been established for those who wish to dispute the regs (just ask the folks who are trying to go to age 65, try doing that with just local POI approval) B6 mgt choose to ignore it.

So what FAR was violated? These flights were conducted under Part 121 Supplemental Flight Rules with a relief pilot onboard.

 

[G4G5]

Sorry to tell you, but ALPA doesn't have a chance at JetBlue, but that's not to say there won't be an eventual organizing of the pilots. I think you'll see something like SWAPA emerge down the road.

Now, just to throw out a thought experiment, could SWAPA enlarge it's scope to become a larger union outside of just Southwest? LCCPA, anyone? I think the vote would be pretty easy to predict if that was ever a possibility.

There, you have your topic, talk amongst yourselves...

YOU DON'T NEED ALPA.

But representation makes sence.

Look at it this way, UPS, AA and SWA all do it on there own. Do it yourselves.

 

[G4G5]

So what FAR was violated? These flights were conducted under Part 121 Supplemental Flight Rules with a relief pilot onboard.

And the Relief pilot had a dedicated First class seat? You may want to look closer into the 121 regs. Ask your POI about dedicated 121 rest area's. Was it fully supine rest? Their is a complete section dedicated to what is considered rest Vs just grabbing any free seat in the back of the aircraft.

I am sure that a proper rest area was installed in every A320 that was involved in the testing, right? Or did the relief pilot get to sit between the screaming 2 year old and the fat guy in 3B?

 

[PCL_128]

YOU DON'T NEED ALPA.

But representation makes sence.

Look at it this way, UPS, AA and SWA all do it on there own. Do it yourselves.

UPS, AA, and SWA don't do it on their own. They all spend huge sums of money to purchase services from ALPA because they can't do it themselves. Take a look at SWAPA's LM-4 whenever you get a chance. Notice all of the money that goes to ALPA to pay for services like negotiating training, E & FA, legal representation, etc... You're dues money is going to ALPA even if you aren't an ALPA member. Might as well join the group so you can have a real say in your industry and profession.

 

[G4G5]

UPS, AA, and SWA don't do it on their own. They all spend huge sums of money to purchase services from ALPA because they can't do it themselves. Take a look at SWAPA's LM-4 whenever you get a chance. Notice all of the money that goes to ALPA to pay for services like negotiating training, E & FA, legal representation, etc... You're dues money is going to ALPA even if you aren't an ALPA member. Might as well join the group so you can have a real say in your industry and profession.

No thanks, I am not a big fan of AA's APA but I still think it's better to go it alone.

 

[Capn Mike]

And the Relief pilot had a dedicated First class seat?

Hey didn't you hear, every seat on JB is first class.

 

[G4G5]

The guy who bids the trans con turn does so fully knowing what he is getting into.. So be it.
What about the poor bastard on short call reserve who keeps getting these things month after month because some senior guy wants to maximize a sick day?

 

[michael707767]

Now tell me how safe it is with a 13 hour duty day to do an out and back to the left coast? You guys are either animals or just gluttons for punishment.
Yeah, you go guys. That kind of schedule and you'll be in ICU for coronary problems by the time you turn 50.

safer than a perfectly legal five leg, 8 flying hour, 13 hour duty day on a 737 in and out of ATL.

The FAA does need to look at the way they do flight rules. I think fatigue is cumulative, so 100 in 30 is a good rule. But I fail to see how a two leg 11 flying hour day is any less safe than my example above. Legal or not, at the end of a five leg day I am wiped out.

 

[nimtz]

Well, your post makes for a nice and scary bedtime story but was not what we were attempting to do.

Well who wants to take the advice of a vet with 20K+ line pilot experience when we can trust our management team to tell us what's cost effective and productive for the pilots! Sounds like the reasoning that lead one towards $60/hour EMB-190 captains...

 

[JP4user]

IThis program was once again flown by a very small minority over here and not endorsed by the whole pilot group!!!!

Was this small minority worried about their 5 year contracts expiring?

 

[JP4user]

Well who wants to take the advice of a vet with 20K+ line pilot experience when we can trust our management team to tell us what's cost effective and productive for the pilots! Sounds like the reasoning that lead one towards $60/hour EMB-190 captains...

Hold on a second, that EMB pay rate is going to go up. They all keep saying it will so it must be true.

 

[Longhorn]

$60 dollar EMB190 CA's? While the pay is low and needs to go up for sure, you may want to do your research again. We do not have $60 dollar/hr 190 ca's

 

[Big Beer Belly]

UPS, AA, and SWA don't do it on their own. They all spend huge sums of money to purchase services from ALPA because they can't do it themselves.

LOL!! Blatantly incorrect (UPS). To my knowledge, the IPA has not purchased anything from ALPA (ever!). We've hired many industry consultants (scope, pension, etc...) that have perhaps also consulted for ALPA, but that's the extent of any connection.

BBB

 

[:-)]

Now, just to throw out a thought experiment, could SWAPA enlarge it's scope to become a larger union outside of just Southwest? LCCPA, anyone? I think the vote would be pretty easy to predict if that was ever a possibility.

It'll never work, this LCCPA. The secret to the success of the SWA pilot group and to SWA in general is not because labor has good union organizations; SWA's success is due to SWA management understanding that employes are people not units. The day that GK takes a Lorenzo style turn, you'll find that SWAPA's style will turn towards that of ALPA.

SWAPA pilots, regardless of what the PD thinks when they hire said pilot, are NO different than the rest of us. SWA, to my knowledge, has no ab initio pilots. Every SWA pilot came from the same environment that the pilots of B6,AA,UA,DL,CO,NW,F9,NK,HP,etc came from. As such, the SWAPA pilots will react toward bad management in the exact same way as do the rest of us. Don't fool yourself into believing the SWAPA is the difference, SWAPA is just the recipient of good managements cooperative attitude.

It's an old truism: mamagement gets the unions that management deserves!

I'm

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

LOL!! Blatantly incorrect (UPS). To my knowledge, the IPA has not purchased anything from ALPA (ever!). We've hired many industry consultants (scope, pension, etc...) that have perhaps also consulted for ALPA, but that's the extent of any connection.

BBB

What are the differences in the TA's between FDX and UPS? The numbers specfically, including the vote?

 

[:-)]

LOL!! Blatantly incorrect (UPS). To my knowledge, the IPA has not purchased anything from ALPA (ever!). We've hired many industry consultants (scope, pension, etc...) that have perhaps also consulted for ALPA, but that's the extent of any connection.

BBB

You had an ALPA lawyer working on your side during your recent (successful) contract negotiations.

 

[ExpWayVis31]

The two-pilot crews were equipped with specially designed motion detectors on their wrists to measure activity, and participated in tests with hand-held computing devices that issued random prompts and then recorded the speed of responses. All told, JetBlue says 29 pilots, including the backup aviators, participated in more than 50 data-gathering flights during May 2005. All of the flights were domestic, and a big portion were coast-to-coast trips.


Not to wory...also a rectal probe was used to shock wake a pilot who drifted in to deep REM sleep...what was unexpected was the frequent manual activation of this probe by wide awake aviators.

 

[transpac]

I'm astounded by the ignorance about the role of the POI and FSDO that's posted in this thread. The POI is not "just an Inspector" (whatever that means). The POI is the one person in the entire FAA bureaucracy who is delegated authority from the FAA Administrator to approve Operations Specifications and Operations Manuals for a particular carrier. IF Jet Blue held an Op Spec that allowed them to operate flights under supplemental rules and the Op Spec was signed by the POI, this case is closed. Maybe FAA HQ has a big problem with what the POI approved, but that's another issue. I presume the POI or his replacement has withdrawn the subject Op Spec by now.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

UPS, AA, and SWA don't do it on their own.

They all spend huge sums of money to purchase services from ALPA because they can't do it themselves. Take a look at SWAPA's LM-4 whenever you get a chance. Notice all of the money that goes to ALPA to pay for services like negotiating training, E & FA, legal representation, etc... You're dues money is going to ALPA even if you aren't an ALPA member. Might as well join the group so you can have a real say in your industry and profession.

Then explain why SWAPA dues are less than ALPA dues.

SWAPA even includes a disability policy.

SWAPA offers MORE for less.

Don't know exactly why, but I don't think the SWAPA staff is union and striking for more pay.

 

[JP4user]

Not to wory...also a rectal probe was used to shock wake a pilot who drifted in to deep REM sleep...what was unexpected was the frequent manual activation of this probe by wide awake aviators.

Maybe they liked it? Or couldn't tell the difference after being spread open by the 190 rates?

Wait...this was only senior guys that participated in this test. They don't care about the 190 rates just a little blue nosing to be sure their contracts are extended since they have been slacking off from their cabin cleaning duties.

Disclaimer. Flamebait, relax Blue dudes this forum is nothing but entertainment.

 

[JP4user]

Then explain why SWAPA dues are less than ALPA dues.

Let me take a crack at this. Because SWAPA doesn't have to pay ridiculous salaries to National and their staff?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then explain why SWAPA dues are less than ALPA dues.

SWAPA even includes a disability policy.

SWAPA offers MORE for less.

Don't know exactly why, but I don't think the SWAPA staff is union and striking for more pay.

SWAPA does a great job.

They don't address Air Line Pilot issues directly on a national and international level. Thus thier cost are lower...

See CAPA

 

[General Lee]

According to a freind over there, they tested these guys during day flights only, with a morning departure from JFK and and early evening return. In most cases it went fine. But, they also tested guys doing early moring departures (6-7am) and arriving on the West Coast early, and then day sleeping, and leaving again late at night for an allnighter back to JFK. Those guys did WORSE. Lots of falling asleep etc. Still, you can't always get perfect weather on each leg, and headwinds to the West Coast could be a problem in the Winter.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Why is there an article about the FA being mad at Jetblue? Did those authors just make it up? Someone is very mad at JB.

Bye Bye--General Lee

C'mon General.

How many times have you read an article and, since you knew the subject matter, complained how wrong and slanted the article was.

Writers love a controversial article even if they are assuming something wrong. Their "source" just confirms the "facts" and they run with it. If ALPA had a hand in it, you know they spoon fed them a story.

You know the FAA will NOT open itself up to questions by saying it allowed this to happen. Like most in government they will say it was not approved while failing to admit someone lower in the food chain allowed it. We won't find out who approved it or how it was approved. We won't even find out what the proper procedure is during this mess.


But if their is no fine levied, we KNOW it wasn't JetBlue's fault. Look for that.


Who's mad at JetBlue? ALPA and everyone who works at the other airlines.

 

[tico]

I'm astounded by the ignorance about the role of the POI and FSDO that's posted in this thread. The POI is not "just an Inspector" (whatever that means). The POI is the one person in the entire FAA bureaucracy who is delegated authority from the FAA Administrator to approve Operations Specifications and Operations Manuals for a particular carrier. IF Jet Blue held an Op Spec that allowed them to operate flights under supplemental rules and the Op Spec was signed by the POI, this case is closed. Maybe FAA HQ has a big problem with what the POI approved, but that's another issue. I presume the POI or his replacement has withdrawn the subject Op Spec by now.

Having been directly involved in this process, I need to add the rest of the truth to your statement :

"The POI is the one person in the entire FAA bureaucracy who is delegated authority from the FAA Administrator to approve Operations Specifications and Operations Manuals for a particular carrier. " The POI will add or remove "op specs" that pre exist and are in line with applicable regulations. So what they are really doing is reviewing a document that has been established as valid by departments way above their pay grade and after carefull cooperative review by the fsdo, fsdo legal and the airline requesting the ops. spec, the inspector and the airlines director of operations will sign off on the ops spec and then it will be implemented.........So really what had to of happened is JetBlue and the POI knowing full well that the operation (121 dom. pax carrier) did not meet the requirements of 121 sup. went ahead and agreed to the program....End result: JetBlue and the POI share in the responsibility of knowingly violating portions of 121 dom. regulations....Hand slaps too all and serious promises to never do this again....case closed....Sorry but there is no story here...this type of regulatory misstep happens with frequency and unless a third party pushes for publicity they always just "go away"

 

[Big Beer Belly]

What are the differences in the TA's between FDX and UPS? The numbers specfically, including the vote?

Dude ... for the love of god ... these contracts are 350 pages each. You want me to personally compare and contrast each, give you the Reader's Digest, then look up the vote numbers also? Uh ... no thanks.

BBB

 

[General Lee]

C'mon General.

How many times have you read an article and, since you knew the subject matter, complained how wrong and slanted the article was.

Writers love a controversial article even if they are assuming something wrong. Their "source" just confirms the "facts" and they run with it. If ALPA had a hand in it, you know they spoon fed them a story.

You know the FAA will NOT open itself up to questions by saying it allowed this to happen. Like most in government they will say it was not approved while failing to admit someone lower in the food chain allowed it. We won't find out who approved it or how it was approved. We won't even find out what the proper procedure is during this mess.


But if their is no fine levied, we KNOW it wasn't JetBlue's fault. Look for that.


Who's mad at JetBlue? ALPA and everyone who works at the other airlines.

According to my friend over there, they HOPE the results of their tests are NOT leaked out. Especially the transcons with day sleeps and then back later that night. That info could change some regs. But hey, thanks for doing the study that confirmed everything we already knew, and some extra stuff the FAA didn't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

SWAPA does a great job.

They don't address Air Line Pilot issues directly on a national and international level. Thus thier cost are lower...

See CAPA

Not only that, but other ALPA services such as Aeromedical (ALPA employs several full-time MDs) aren't available to the pilots of SWAPA, NPA, etc... The individual unions only purchase the services that they want. That usually is just E & FA, various training for committees, and Representation (legal). All of ALPA's other services that are paid for with the 1.95% aren't purchased by the other unions.

 

[Dizel8]

Not to wory...also a rectal probe was used to shock wake a pilot who drifted in to deep REM sleep...what was unexpected was the frequent manual activation of this probe by wide awake aviators.

Was that wrong, should they not have done that? I ask, because I just don't see that spelled out in any of the manuals!

 

[Dizel8]

According to my friend over there, they HOPE the results of their tests are NOT leaked out. Especially the transcons with day sleeps and then back later that night. That info could change some regs. But hey, thanks for doing the study that confirmed everything we already knew, and some extra stuff the FAA didn't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

We all know this to be reality, that daysleeps are bad, but the FAA keeps turning a blind eye to the issue. One of these days perhaps, they will wake up, no pun intended, but untill then, we are all stuck working under the current FAR's.

No, I am not in favour of daytime transcon turns, but I also think there must be a better way to skin the cat, than what the current FAR's stipulate.