JB pilots file with NMB

[waveflyer]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

i think you have preconceptions of what a union is.
answer this- do you collectively bargain right now? meaning- can an individual pilot go to mgmt- show their work record and quals and negotiate a higher salary than that of any of their peers?
Is advancement based solely on seniority?
IOW- aren't you set up exactly like a union now?
You have individual contracts now? is that right? what advantage does that give you?

In our industry- we all collectively bargain and use a seniority system to determine the pecking order. I've lobbied for years that it's a dumb way to set up our career since airlines fail and go through bk more often now. But it is the way it is.
I don't see how individual contracts gives you any leverage in our industry considering it's not realistic to go to any other airline and say 'i've got 8000 hours , 4 types, 5000 pic, masters degree- good attitude and employment record- what can you offer me?' iow-leverage in other careers comes from an individual having the ability to change companies and increase their pay, responsibilities, and benefits. We don't have that. The only competition that takes place is in the first few years- after which- our leverage comes from our collective action.
Without a union- there is no collective action. Hence, no leverage.

Why- in any business deal- would you reduce your leverage? Why would a company ask you to? They may be playing nice- but the 'market' wage you're getting now- comes from the 'industry standard' which came from other pilot groups exerting their leverage through their union.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Just like the cabin cleaning, I doubt you'll find creditbility for the study....

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

So answer this: Do pilots if UAL, DAL, NWA, and SWA respect you more or less? An honest answer would be nice....

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

That is irreelevant. Why did the FAA in Wash DC respond the way they did? An honest answer would be nice..

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

Perhaps you missed what I stated... the FAA has defined a profession as one that has a CoE. Methinks you don't understand what a Code Of Ethics is all about....

Even ALPA didn't have one until the 1970s....

 

[PsubS]

Res--

I obviously will not convince you of anything I say. That's to be expected, as you apparently are not willing to exchange ideas, but just transmit. I will end my short sojurn back to the dark side of FI with this....

You originally made three points that illustrated how JetBlue needed a union. You still have not adequately told me how they apply. I'm just asking you to explain your own statements, but you can't.

Your lack of understanding of the fatigue study is stunning. You haven't read it, or else you would understand that the science behind it was quite sound. I even posted a link to it for you. Show me otherwise, please. Othewise, just keep this point to yourself, else you will just show your ignorance on the subject.

Why did the FAA in DC get upset? Beats me--Ask them. We got approval to do the evaluation from the FAA, period.

As for what Delta, Southwest, and other pilot groups think of me...what do I really care? I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do. It ain't rocket science!

Finally, your insistence on the COE is interesting. Are you trying to show that because the FAA defined a COE as integral to a profession, we must adopt one as an airline?

Oh, you're so confusing. But amusingly so.

Just my opinion.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Res--

I obviously will not convince you of anything I say. That's to be expected, as you apparently are not willing to exchange ideas, but just transmit. I will end my short sojurn back to the dark side of FI with this....

That is because you offer no debate. Just because you believe it and you said it three times doesn't mean much. I get it... you believe it. But you offer no compelling reason or persuasiveness.

You originally made three points that illustrated how JetBlue needed a union. You still have not adequately told me how they apply. I'm just asking you to explain your own statements, but you can't.

Yes I have. You don't want to be objective. In addition, others have tried to reason with you on this thread.. I'll try reason one more time...

Cabin cleaning pilots doesn't help with a professional image. At SWA and the airline I fly for, non english speaking immigrants clean cabins for minimum wage. They scurry the aisles quickly getting out of the way as passengers in aft rows still exit. When passengers and pilots see this and either see or know that JB pilots clean too, it doesn't help your respectability and image.

Question: would you prefer to clean or not? JB is the only airline of its stature that has cabin cleaning pilots. It has no union. Coincidence? And honest answer reply from you would be nice. It would enhance this debate. I might learn something...

Your lack of understanding of the fatigue study is stunning. You haven't read it, or else you would understand that the science behind it was quite sound. I even posted a link to it for you. Show me otherwise, please. Othewise, just keep this point to yourself, else you will just show your ignorance on the subject.

Again, I am not debating the science and study. I am debating conducting the study on the public.

Why did the FAA in DC get upset? Beats me--Ask them. We got approval to do the evaluation from the FAA, period.

If you don't know the answer then you are not being objective. You know the answer why... you just don't want to honestly debate the issue on this forum.

As for what Delta, Southwest, and other pilot groups think of me...what do I really care?

Not a good attitude. Especially going forward.. there will be big changes in the Air Line Pilot profession in the next 10-20 years and beyond.

You have no voice and no say in those changes. You will accept those changes whether you like it or not. More importantly, to protect your job you;ll need friends.. not caring doesn't help...

I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do. It ain't rocket science!

As a non-rev'er I do the same... there is a difference.

Finally, your insistence on the COE is interesting. Are you trying to show that because the FAA defined a COE as integral to a profession, we must adopt one as an airline?

You really are having a hard time with this....

Adopt one as an airline? No. not an airline. I've told you in other post.. this has nothing to do with airlines or companies. This has to do with the profession of Air Line Pilots...

Questions for you...

Does JB management care about the Air Line Pilot Profession. Are they the custodians?

Does gov't care?

Does the public care?

Only pilots care about the Profession. It is up to you to define, keep and better the profession. You can't really do that without representation...

Oh, you're so confusing. But amusingly so.

Just my opinion.

Yes it is.. Hopefully you will take this discussion seriously and respond to the issues....

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do.

I call BS on this one. FAs yes, pilots NO. Been here 3 years, never seen it when I am working.

Plus I am a commuter from a decent sized non-revving city as well. Never seen that happen either on my 4 commutes a month.

The cabin cleaning thing is indeed a dead horse, but let's not spin it to suit your particular kind of blue juice concentrate.

And yes, I help. Oddly enough, many captains I fly with don't. I never do so in front of passengers though. I just don't think that's the image they need to have of pilots.


Caveman -- you keep trying to get an answer to those questions, god bless you. When you get a response from Blue Dude or A350 let us know.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Your lack of understanding of the fatigue study is stunning. You haven't read it, or else you would understand that the science behind it was quite sound.

I agree the science behind it is quite sound.
In theory.
In practice, it would be totally different matter.
One IROP, one divert, one mx issue, one tech stop, and all your science would be right out the window.
Can you, with a straight face, say that CS would replace a crew that had a delay? To Lear Jet a crew to the middle of the country because of a med divert?
If so, you just don't have much to do with JB CS.
Before long, it would be a transcon turn with a 16 hour duty day.

 

[waveflyer]

rest rules just don't make any sense as they are = and you guys are arguing the details of this? seriously- are you really arguing that a 16 hour duty day criss-crossing the country w/ 5 legs is easier than a transcon turn- i get their point- 20+ hour credit 2-days that keep you in the same time zone makes more sense to me.

the point of this thread is that the JB pilots had no independent collective representation on the issue- when they were the ones who'd be the most affected-and that to me is the mistake of it.

 

[Blue Dude]

Caveman -- you keep trying to get an answer to those questions, god bless you. When you get a response from Blue Dude or A350 let us know.

You've got me confused with Blue Bayou. Bad mistake. We have nothing in common other than we both wear blue shirts at work.

 

[coogebeachhotel]

BTW when is the vote????

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You've got me confused with Blue Bayou. Bad mistake. We have nothing in common other than we both wear blue shirts at work.

Or Blue Curacao or Blue Hawaii or Blue Bayou or Bonny Luvs Blue Bushy ...