JB or Airtran?

[kingairip]

CH11 is not an option for a private company

somebody better tell Aloha that....

 

[-9Capt]

If you look at 12 year pay then Airtran is the obvious winner
153 x 70 x 12 = $133,560 VS 139 x 70 x 12 = $116,760

While I am not disputing any of these numbers, they seem right to me, you will make a fair amount of "soft pay" at AirTran.

For example, my June line is blocked for 78.5hrs and pays 86.7hrs. So far this month, my credit exceeds block by just over 8hrs. Reserves can really clean up.

Just one more thing to consider, but for all I know the same thing happens at JB.

 

[bandit317]

"Any insight as to why the rejection? Did you feel you made any mistakes or said anything wrong or controversial in the interviews?
Appreciate any insight you could give the rest of us who are hoping for an interview call and don't want to get that dreaded letter afterwards."

Honestly, I felt both went well. I interviewed for a sim instructor position at JB, not pilot, so I had no gouge going in. I felt the interview went well, everyone was super nice, and they paid for my airline ticket. JB was only looking for about 12 sim guys, and not knowing the others and their experience levels, my take would be rejection due to others' more qualified. I also think my desire to fly came out, and they want someone dedicated to the dark boxes. They said it won't affect my app. for a pilot position, so hopefully that will still happen.

AT: I thought this was a done deal. My best interview ever. Studied the gouge for two weeks, had multiple great stories, did the ATL job fair and AT facilities tour, had 4 letters of rec., 3 from very well respected captains (1 even personally placed my resume on top), wore a blue suit w/red tie, and did the interview prep course. The interview went well, and I got positive feedback from all, including the Asst. chief pilot flat out telling me he would recommend me, and commented on my "well respected" recommendations. SG was her normally pleasant, smiling self. Everyone made me feel like I was already hired. So what happened? Even if all interviewers recommend you, the decision comes from flight ops in Orlando. This was my second interview w/AT, and second rejection. There are rumors that a "black list" exists from the former chief pilot of pilots he doesn't want hired. My guess is that my name is on that list from when I first interviewed 7 years ago. If I am on this list, then I wish AT hadn't wasted my time and got my hopes up in the first place. At least I can try again and get rejected again in 6 more months.

 

[Ty Webb]

What I mean, Moose, is that there was a lot of goodwill between pilots and management here that could have been used to come to a quick, mutually beneficial agreement. Unfortunately, Mgmnt decided to start making things difficult for the pilot group by dusting off the old EAL playbook. This pilot group has been polled multiple times and is in agreement that we are not settling for less than a contract rewrite and par with our peers at SWA and elsewhere. Management solidified this situation by asking for concessions (rejected) and then giving themselves $8 mil.

 

[shadesofBS]

Folks here have been talking as if FLL and LGB would be considerations in a decision to come to JB. I would say only if you intend to be an FO for the rest of your career. These bases are closed out, very senior, and the company has continually hinted that the growth is finished. Even suggested that they may have been mistakes.

Look for BOS and of course JFK.

Another consideration is the fact that even if you were hired today, you could very well be looking at RJ pay for a long time - so A320 Capt. pay scale comparison is only valid looking out past 5 years.

In addition, even when you do make A320 Captain, you will likely be paid less than 80 hours for several years, therefore, the 90 hour comparisons would be very misleading because anyone at JB who pulls down less than 80 hours is actually being paid less than their equals at Frontier or Airtran or America West.

90 hours at A320 Captain pay in a base like FLL or LGB is just not going to happen.

For a good career earnings picture, I would calculate one year at EMB190 FO around 85 hours a month, then three years at 190 Captain at 85 hours a month, then 3 years at A320 Captain at 75 hours a month, finishing with the remaining years to age 60 at 84 hours a month. Consistently earning 90 hours is a fading hope for many and many of us have never seen a single 90 hour pay day. A good tip for you though is to get on a committee or some other office type function - big paychecks for this stuff.

A commute to JFK or BOS is almost certainly in the cards and possibly a permanent situation.

Hope this helps.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Bandit317,
Thank you for taking the time to provide us with insight into your experience. Hope your pilot app with JB comes through!

 

[willard]

Bandit 317,


Did you pay for that 737 type yourself to get on with SWA? I heard that will get you a rejection letter. AirTran had some new hires leave for SWA recently I was told in my interview and it didn't please em too much. Can't say I blame them for not offering jobs to SWA wannabe's and pft er's. I'm not saying the latter applies to you, and sorry about your bad interview luck...sadly luck is all this career is. Glad we don't fly planes counting only on luck, eh?

 

[B6Guy]

Almost right

Shades of BS, you almost have it right. If a pilot was hired and went through E190FO, E190Capt, and had two years accrued, then his seniority in all aircraft will be at the two year level.

I doubt very much that with the above aircraft assignments that after bidding for and getting A320 captain a pilot would sit reserve @75 hrs/Mo. for three years. I'd say one year max.

I would also speculate that MIA may be added to FLL base and allow some growth, and maybe ONT and BUR to LGB. Lots of driving, but bigger base population. I agree that JFK and BOS are pretty much the growth focus for awhile.

Smile it could be a LOT worse. We have a great group of crewmembers to work with, and we have significant growth up ahead in both aircraft types.






Life is fun, regardless how difficult at times, just ask a dead person!!

 

[Phaedrus]

willard: Agree with the "luck" aspect of this industry as long as that somehow envelops the "who you know" aspect.
Also, about the 737 type; I paid for one, the question was specifically asked at my AirTran interview (in front of the entire group), and I still got hired. There was one other interviewee that day who also got hired in spite of his/her 73 type.

 

[bandit317]

Bandit 317,


Did you pay for that 737 type yourself to get on with SWA? I heard that will get you a rejection letter. AirTran had some new hires leave for SWA recently I was told in my interview and it didn't please em too much. Can't say I blame them for not offering jobs to SWA wannabe's and pft er's. I'm not saying the latter applies to you, and sorry about your bad interview luck...sadly luck is all this career is. Glad we don't fly planes counting only on luck, eh?

Willard - I'm with you, man! If I knew getting into this career and making it to the majors was about luck, I would have gone another route, maybe a rock star. Seriously, I've always had bad karma, must have been born with it. Been trying so hard and doing everything right - but I guess my downfall is that I'm a white male, with tons of jet captain time, no accidents, no violations, never failed a checkride, etc. Can't seem to catch a break. Even my student pilot's license (medical) was deferred to the FAA because I made a mistake on the medical application and checked the wrong box. Took 2 months to go through the hoops. Couldn't get into the military due to a heart murmer that I didn't even know I had, which eventually grounded me for 2 years. And there's more, but I won't go into it. Should have listened to the signs back then.

Anyway, I did pay for my type myself hoping for a call from SWA. Apparently they've called almost everyone in my type rating class except me. If AirTran didn't like the type rating, than they shouldn't have wasted my time to begin with. It never even came up during the interview.

Anyone one know of a good career out there? Sorry, I'm just very bitter right now.

 

[BFL370]

I got hired at a great company all do to luck, that seems to be the best route if you can get it. But my number one desire was to do Adult Movies. I worked hard, joined the "Porn Stars of America Local 145" and all I could get was the job holding the camera light. So I feel your pain, work out every day, keep tanned etc. No luck, but at least I have my day job.

 

[bandit317]

I got hired at a great company all do to luck, that seems to be the best route if you can get it. But my number one desire was to do Adult Movies. I worked hard, joined the "Porn Stars of America Local 145" and all I could get was the job holding the camera light. So I feel your pain, work out every day, keep tanned etc. No luck, but at least I have my day job.

I've been thinking about doing porn as well. Does the local 145 offer any retirement or disability?
THanks

 

[BFL370]

No retirement in 401K-B or Pension. But the benifits are great, just stay away from the APSL157, they are the alternate Adult Union, think Liberache or Elton, but if you like both you can join APSL178 it covers both sides in it's films. Snake aka Joe P. is running for President and would help you break in if you want. Dont ask what you do in the interview.

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

Again good insight on AT and JB. One other thing.... I flew for AT in the early days, and quit in 1999 for a major. Hopefully the culture has changed forthe better.

 

[-9Capt]

Again good insight on AT and JB. One other thing.... I flew for AT in the early days, and quit in 1999 for a major. Hopefully the culture has changed forthe better.

I was around back then, you wouldn't even recognize the place today.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'll tell you how much it's changed:

1) If there is a delay of over one minute to park at the gate, they want to know about it. . .

2) AJ and the Ungertaker have both retired.

3) We fly west of the Mississippi (but only after midnight).

4) We have new ties.

5) The last DC9 was donated to a museum, with a couple of "Five-Oh Number guys" still gripping the yokes in their crusty claws.

 

[IAHERJ]

Those two individuals mentioned above are the backbone of the 717 training department. I've had the pleasure of working with both of them in the form of different checking events over my short stint of working at AirTran. Both are true gentlemen and I'd consider myself lucky to have either for my upgrade training if/when that day should occur. If they are really leaving the training department then we as a pilot group are the real losers here. I agree we need to modernize the thought process a bit within our pilot group regarding line operations and CRM however these two instructors/check airmen are institutions at this airline and two institutions I believe we benefit greatly from.

I know Ty was only using their names to stress how different things are here now with the thought of these to guys possibly leaving. I seriously doubt that he meant that their possible eminent departure makes things better in any way as they are both two popular guys around here. Heck, Boeing engineers actually call one of them for answers when they are stumped over questions regarding the 717. This guy could use his knowledge to stump guys in orals everyday however he uses it in practical ways and actually enjoys teaching more than anything. You can sense it after a very short conversation with him.

It is going to be very different if these guys leave. Unlike the other above mentioned changes at the airline, this one is not seen as positive by me.

IAHERJ

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

Thats good news.

 

[Ty Webb]

I know Ty was only using their names to stress how different things are here now with the thought of these to guys possibly leaving.

When I said they were "retired", I meant from line flying. I am sure they'll be around the schoolhouse for quite a while. . . . .

 

[IAHERJ]

When I said they were "retired", I meant from line flying. I am sure they'll be around the schoolhouse for quite a while. . . . .

I hope they are. I've heard that at least one of them has entertained an opportunity elsewhere. We 717 guys need these two to stick around.

IAHERJ

 

[mnboyev]

Well.... I'm a little partial to AirTran. I'll throw in a couple random thoughts.

With that said. AirTran is a little more like and 'old' traditional airline. Employee groups stick together and fight across lines. But we all chip in when it is needed. ?? So I cant say that across the board we are just like the ol legacies. But SWA and Jet Blue we are not. No Kool aid and polo shirts. No friggin beach parties to build teamwork and loyalty. Some days I wish we had a little more luv...

We dont run around doing High Fives in the hallways. Everyone is realistic about our position in the industry. AirTran folks as a whole work hard and eagerly seek to solidify our status and turf. A very proud workforce who is a bit underpaid considering what is expected. My opinion only ... Maybe subjective at best.

But the fellas running the place, in the time Ive been here, have done a pretty darn good job. Safe reliable aircraft, Low CASM, and aggressive expansion into legacy territory. Not an easy task with an industry that is upside down.

The Pilots have alot of pull when things get dicey. We are a pilots airline and the mechanics are a close second. I believe this a traditional trait that has been handed to our pilot group from the Ol Gray haired fellas who started the place.. Both Airways and VJ. So.. Airtran has had a good 'base' of experience and hardship which creates a rock solid solidarity amongst most AirTran pilots.

I can pick on my brother ... but if you pick on him I'll kick you arse..!!

Long story short.. AirTran is a great place to work. Pretty good pay. Ok benefits. Ok schedules. Good expansion and opportunity. Safe equipment. Hardworking ethic (pilot group). Bright future for AirTran. We are not going away... AirTran will be around for many years to come.

Best of Luck to you. You would enjoy flying with us at AirTran. Fun pilot group with good experience. We operate in a very safe and careful manner and try to provide the customer with a reliable and friendly product.

 

[XGmaninGA]

Well said.

 

[Dennis Miller]

The Pilots have alot of pull when things get dicey. We are a pilots airline and the mechanics are a close second. I believe this a traditional trait that has been handed to our pilot group from the Ol Gray haired fellas who started the place..

I heard from a friend of mine that this is one of the only downsides to Southwest. He said, "The best thing about Southwest is everyone is treated the same, the worst thing about Southwest is everyone is treated the same". The Captains are not very respected by other work groups, but they should be. The entire operation revolves around the Captain, like it or not. Apparently some other work groups don’t. Many team meetings with a peeved employee who had a run in with a Captain, only to see the Captain made out to be in the wrong.

 

[jbDave]

Just throwing my .02 in here.


1. I can't elaborate any more eloquently than those who have already posted on this subject regarding the commute, but understand that it is a HUGE factor. I have commuted to work now for eleven years, most of which has been "off-line" commuting. Just going from that to commuting "on-line" is night and day. Especially if you can live in base (or close to it) and drive in - what a difference. I am now enjoying that priveledge for the first time in quite a LONG time. Anyway, the commute can easily add 25%-30% to your away from home schedule depending on how it plays out for you.

2. I turned down a job offer from AirTran in 2001. Frankly, I wasn't terribly impressed during the interview. In their defense, that was then - this is now. I truly believe that they have come miles along since then. Maybe it was my short sightedness at the time, but I have been at peace with my decision.

3. JetBlue has been a dream come true for me. Very content, extremely happy. I do not have my eye on anything else.

4. The E190 thing as it relates to pay (according to mgmt) should be a wash when viewed over a 3 year period from date of hire. Reasoning for this is based on upgrade within 1 year on the E190 versus 3 years in the A320. This is all variable with aircraft deliveries and however current JB pilots bid in the future. After studying the demographics involved I think that their estimations are not too far off target. Possibly even favoring the E190 for higher total pay depending if the A320 upgrades become protracted over time. Only time will tell, but I don't think you can go wrong either way.


Bottom line. I think you have a tough decision but in the end you will probably be happy either way. It all comes down to a matter of personal choice. The biggest one for me was that JetBlue was a better fit for me and I couldn't be happier. Only you will know what is a better fit for you.

Congrats on whichever you choose.

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

thanks jbdave...well said, and I agree about the commuting thing.

 

[nimtz]

4. The E190 thing as it relates to pay (according to mgmt) should be a wash when viewed over a 3 year period from date of hire. Reasoning for this is based on upgrade within 1 year on the E190 versus 3 years in the A320. This is all variable with aircraft deliveries and however current JB pilots bid in the future. After studying the demographics involved I think that their estimations are not too far off target. Possibly even favoring the E190 for higher total pay depending if the A320 upgrades become protracted over time. Only time will tell, but I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Well guess that makes those DC-9, oops I mean E190 pay rates acceptable then...

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Can anybody clue me in on a few JetBlue questions:

1. Min days off on reserve.
2. Ability to drop/pick-up trips (Minimum hours you can drop to)
3. Vacation


Thanks

 

[banger]

Reserve min days off is 12. You can ask to block those in groups of 4 or 3 if you commute. Min hours for a line holder is 70. We have a very cool program called FLICA on the web that makes it super easy to pick up/drop/PTO and other things. That said the ability (approval) to change anything usually depends on things like number of reserves required and other things. And the ability to drop trips is very dependent on the number of reserve pilots required for a certain day (more on weekends/holidays, less on weekdays) Right now (seems like forever) we are short pilots so people are getting frustrated because they cannot drop any trips or use the PTO (paid time off 9hrs/month) that is granted to them. The company is aware of the problem and is working on solutions.
Vacations are bid by seniority and if I remember right we got a week off the first year and 2 the second year. You must build your own PTO each month to cover the pay for the week. Meaning you can bid 2 weeks off but if your PTO bank has no more hours because you took off 9 hours every month of the year then you end up with 2 weeks of unpaid. All in all it works pretty good for me.
Company is always looking to change improve things. Right now they realized that the summer will be undermanned so they have offered to "buy" back vacations of people who have them scheduled during summer months. Totally voluntary program. That way more pilots will be available and the reserve guys will get a little break. Good Luck!

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Just one more, what's the hour value of a day when using PTO?

 

[banger]

I just looked in the pay manual. Value of a reserve day and vacation is 5 PTO hours. Value of a linholder's trip dropped is the scheduled hours credit of that trip.