Jb + alpa

[SRJ]

Die JB, DIE!!!

 

[Blue Dude]

Die JB, DIE!!!

This jacket thing really has you worked up doesn't it?

 

[bluesideup340]

I don't think you have a clue as to how on the edge the pilot group is.

Time is running out........... The lack of communication from anyone other than Jenny is screaming bad news.

IMHO

Well, I now know at least one of the Pilots on the edge.
Smoking Man, what do you smoke?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There was a Twilight Zone episode where the aliens come to earth clutching a manual called: To Serve Man. Remember that one?

So the aliens set about to fix everything that's wrong with the plant and pretty soon they're growing corn on barren land and turning deserts into wheat fields. This inspires great confidence and trust in the aliens.

For the first time ever, no one is starving. Food is so plentiful and cheap, everyone seems to be prospering and happy. Then, in one of those classic Rod Serling twists, it is discovered that To Serve Man is actually the title of a cookbook and the aliens have been secretly eating humans all along...

I can't remember where I was going with this.

That the promise of hyper consumerism is secretly destryoing democracy?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Dear Rez.
For your information, Foreign Ownership and Cabotage are two separate issues.
So no need for you to scare people.

The threat is real. We can deal with it. What difference does it make if FOwnership and Cabatoge are two seperate issues? The second stage negotiations are this year....

For those that do care about facts, here it goes.

Yes here it goes...

http://www.eurunion.org/eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1756&Itemid=58

The European side has long made clear its objective for the second stage negotiations: the completion of an Open Aviation Area encompassing the EU and the US. This would include the reciprocal removal of limits on the ownership of airlines by investors from the European Union and the United States. In addition, it would allow companies based on either side of the Atlantic to carry passengers on domestic air services in the territory of the other party.


For example, a European airline would be able to carry passengers from New York onto Los Angeles and an American-owned carrier would be able to sell London to Manchester tickets. Such freedoms to operate domestic services are currently only open to American and European carriers on their respective sides of the Atlantic. A successful outcome to these negotiations would give equal opportunities to compete to carriers and investors from both sides. This would be a radical new approach for international aviation, further breaking down the long-held convention that assumes domestic markets should be reserved for carriers owned by that country.​

Is LH and its dealings with JB not concerning?

 

[bluesideup340]

[/FONT]

The threat is real. We can deal with it. What difference does it make if FOwnership and Cabatoge are two seperate issues? The second stage negotiations are this year....






Yes here it goes...

http://www.eurunion.org/eu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1756&Itemid=58

The European side has long made clear its objective for the second stage negotiations: the completion of an Open Aviation Area encompassing the EU and the US. This would include the reciprocal removal of limits on the ownership of airlines by investors from the European Union and the United States. In addition, it would allow companies based on either side of the Atlantic to carry passengers on domestic air services in the territory of the other party. ​

For example, a European airline would be able to carry passengers from New York onto Los Angeles and an American-owned carrier would be able to sell London to Manchester tickets. Such freedoms to operate domestic services are currently only open to American and European carriers on their respective sides of the Atlantic. A successful outcome to these negotiations would give equal opportunities to compete to carriers and investors from both sides. This would be a radical new approach for international aviation, further breaking down the long-held convention that assumes domestic markets should be reserved for carriers owned by that country.​

Is LH and its dealings with JB not concerning?

No it is not concerning at all. And yes it is important to differentiate between ownership and cabotage.
Foreign ownership is part of the free market allowing airlines to raise working capital just like any other industry.
Cabotage is equally beneficial to Delta, AA, and United as it benefits LH, KLM, etc. Also, keep in mind UPS and FedEx already operate intra EU.
Again foreign ownership is one thing not related to cabotage.
But let us assume cabotage comes to fruition.
Why are you affraid of the ptotential growth opportunities for US airlines in EU? If the economics work on this side of the Atlantic they also work on the other side.

 

[ArmadilloJackal]

Can someone give me an example where protectionism was good in the long run for the growth of an economy? We shouldn't be afraid of competition.

 

[Oh-ryan]

I hate JetBlue. I hope you sorry a$$ losers go tits up before ALPA is voted in.

F-n jerks. Nice black leather jackets BTW.

Hey. You can type "tits" on FI.com??? Awesome.

Tits. Tits. Tits.

giddity giddity

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

No it is not concerning at all. And yes it is important to differentiate between ownership and cabotage.
Foreign ownership is part of the free market allowing airlines to raise working capital just like any other industry.
Cabotage is equally beneficial to Delta, AA, and United as it benefits LH, KLM, etc. Also, keep in mind UPS and FedEx already operate intra EU.
Again foreign ownership is one thing not related to cabotage.
But let us assume cabotage comes to fruition.
Why are you affraid of the ptotential growth opportunities for US airlines in EU? If the economics work on this side of the Atlantic they also work on the other side.

Keep in mind that the US domestic industry is a majority off the worlds airline industry.. at 80% at a given time... The EU is tapped out. Not much room for growth except maybe out east....

Not sure why knowing the difference between FO and Cabatoge is significant. I've quoted where changes to both can be detrimental to the JB pilots.

The first question is... does JB have the capital to invest overseas? If so, does that mean job opportunities for JB pilots? If so, why? LH has inversted in JB.. are there more LH pilot jobs at JB?

UPS and FX, as did Pan Am at one time intra EU because of post WWII agreements. Now that the EU is caught up economically, they want a piece of the global airline pie... I don't blame them....

My concern is just because US investors throw money at EU airline industry doesn't mean it will translate into US jobs. The big concern with the second stage US/EU open skies talks is labor protections.

Also, keep in mind, that once the US/EU are finished Asian, Mid East, African and S. American states will want to open up....

Here are considerations to ponder:

As an American Pilot do you want to move to or commute to (company DH or not) to Eastern Europe to fly your trips? Africa? Mid East? Asia?

Will the negotiations have labor protections so that you will have legal priviledge of operating foreign registered aicraft. Or who will pay for your foreign pilots license to operate in that region/country.

Let's say Delta invests in XYZ airlines in Europe... The DAL pilots say, our work provided the revenue to invest in XYZ. we want rights to that flying... fine. Will the DALPA CBA apply to this new airline? Its certificate?

The world economy has gone global. Labor law has not.


Foreign ownership and cabatogge might sound very attractive from a free market persepctive, and many pilots get lured into a belief that as stakeholders they will be taken care of....

The problem is... only the shareholders are calling the shots...

 

[N2264J]

That the promise of hyper consumerism is secretly destryoing democracy?

Oh, I remember now - IT'S A COOKBOOK!

 

[bluesideup340]

Keep in mind that the US domestic industry is a majority off the worlds airline industry.. at 80% at a given time... The EU is tapped out. Not much room for growth except maybe out east....

Since everyone is pulling seats out of the market I highly doubt the US domestic market isn't tapped out.

Not sure why knowing the difference between FO and Cabatoge is significant. I've quoted where changes to both can be detrimental to the JB pilots.

The first question is... does JB have the capital to invest overseas? If so, does that mean job opportunities for JB pilots? If so, why? LH has inversted in JB.. are there more LH pilot jobs at JB?...

This is why it is important to understand the difference between FO and Cabotage.
A US based carrier is subject to the same laws for who it can employ, no matter who its owners might be. All US carriers have to employ either lawfully admitted foreign nationals on special work visas, or US permanent residents, and indeed, for some jobs, they can only employ full US citizens. There is no difference in these laws if the airline is owned by people in London or Little Rock.

UPS and FX, as did Pan Am at one time intra EU because of post WWII agreements. Now that the EU is caught up economically, they want a piece of the global airline pie... I don't blame them....

So we do agree, the EU request is not unreasonable.

My concern is just because US investors throw money at EU airline industry doesn't mean it will translate into US jobs. The big concern with the second stage US/EU open skies talks is labor protections.

Also, keep in mind, that once the US/EU are finished Asian, Mid East, African and S. American states will want to open up....

Again any US based carrier is subject to the same laws for who it can employ, no matter who its owners might be.

As an American Pilot do you want to move to or commute to (company DH or not) to Eastern Europe to fly your trips? Africa? Mid East? Asia?

Will the negotiations have labor protections so that you will have legal priviledge of operating foreign registered aicraft. Or who will pay for your foreign pilots license to operate in that region/country.

Let's say Delta invests in XYZ airlines in Europe... The DAL pilots say, our work provided the revenue to invest in XYZ. we want rights to that flying... fine. Will the DALPA CBA apply to this new airline? Its certificate?....

Look at any Mulit National company and give me an example when this occured. Keep in mind foreign ownership is always bound by the local labor law. Hence, it is doubtful american pilots will be based abroad or visa versa.

The world economy has gone global. Labor law has not.


Foreign ownership and cabatogge might sound very attractive from a free market persepctive, and many pilots get lured into a belief that as stakeholders they will be taken care of....

The problem is... only the shareholders are calling the shots...

Look at Coke, GE, MC, Ford, IBM, J&J, etc. Has their global presents as mulitnational cooperations harmed labor?

How about Toyota, VW, Mercedes, SAP, UBS,etc. Do these company invest and provide jobs here in the US to americans?

Last but not least. Foreign Ownership and Cabotage are two different things and following the Australian model if structured right benefits all stakeholders.
BTW KLM/AirFrance and the Lufthansa/Brussel/BMI/Swiss operation work very well. No dooms day senario.

 

[Stanky]

You're right, Blueside.

What has foreign competition done to harm the US auto industry? Detriot is doing great!!!

I look forward to going head to head with Eithiopian Airlines. Their pilots are highly paid and highly compensated.

Besides, I'm sure we could compete with them on the lucrative Baha Dar to Werner route and make just as much as they could on the JFK-LAX route.

You don't think much before you type, do you, BoB?

Cabotage will be the final nail in the coffin to the US industry, because the cost of living is so much lower in so much more of the world. There are airlines all over the world that can offer better (not safer) service to US domestic airlines because they can find people who will work for next to nothing and still manage to raise their standard of living at home. Just look at who's doing the landscaping work in your neighborhood. It ain't people from the US, because it doesn't pay enough for them to be happy, but it allows many people from countries with less to offer than we have a chance to send money home to their families and live a better life.

There's nothing wrong with that, unless you had your heart set on working for a landscaper. If you did, you'll find that it pays a lot less than it used to.

Which is I guess is the point, but as a Bob, I'm not sure that you can actually read, so I guess I'll just bid you a good night, and a happy, transparent, direct, collabrative relationship.

How's that pay raise coming, anyway?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Die JB, DIE!!!

Run with scissors.
Lift with your back.
Bang a flight attendant without using a jimmy hat.
Start smoking.

 

[BigMeat]

Can someone give me an example where protectionism was good in the long run for the growth of an economy? We shouldn't be afraid of competition.

Your joking right? Havent you seen what happened when the average american worker was pitted against workers from China and India who work for 50 cents a day? Are you from the south? Come on be honest....

 

[aewanabe]

No it is not concerning at all. And yes it is important to differentiate between ownership and cabotage.
Foreign ownership is part of the free market allowing airlines to raise working capital just like any other industry.
Cabotage is equally beneficial to Delta, AA, and United as it benefits LH, KLM, etc. Also, keep in mind UPS and FedEx already operate intra EU.
Again foreign ownership is one thing not related to cabotage.
But let us assume cabotage comes to fruition.
Why are you affraid of the ptotential growth opportunities for US airlines in EU? If the economics work on this side of the Atlantic they also work on the other side.

WOW! Cabotage has not nearly the benefit for a US domestic carrier as it does for the Euros. Are you for real?! Sorry but the London-Manchester or Turkey to Ibiza market opportunites are but a FRACTION of the US domestic market. Do you really want to have Ryanair flying point-to-point in the US, with Eastern-European guys who pay 50K for a 73 type and think it's ok to pay for their own parking and uniforms and f-ing RECURRENT SIMS?! Because as much as the regionals suck here SJS in Europe means 300-hours and paying for your job in an F-ing Airbus.

For goodness sake wake up. The ignorance and head-in-the-sand syndrome is stunning.

 

[aewanabe]

Can someone give me an example where protectionism was good in the long run for the growth of an economy? We shouldn't be afraid of competition.

Spend 5 minutes reading PPrune and tell me you aren't scared of competing with the likes of Ryanair or Easy Jet and the conditions they work under. If you're not, I weep even more for this industry.

 

[bluesideup340]

You're right, Blueside.

What has foreign competition done to harm the US auto industry? Detriot is doing great!!!

Two of the big three failed because of lack of vision and not because of competition.

I look forward to going head to head with Eithiopian Airlines. Their pilots are highly paid and highly compensated.

Besides, I'm sure we could compete with them on the lucrative Baha Dar to Werner route and make just as much as they could on the JFK-LAX route.

Are you a Ethiopian citizen or do you hold a work permit for the country?
If your answer is no. The Chances is very good you will never have too.

You don't think much before you type, do you, BoB?

So you try to insult me because you have no arguments? weak

Cabotage will be the final nail in the coffin to the US industry, because the cost of living is so much lower in so much more of the world. There are airlines all over the world that can offer better (not safer) service to US domestic airlines because they can find people who will work for next to nothing and still manage to raise their standard of living at home. Just look at who's doing the landscaping work in your neighborhood. It ain't people from the US, because it doesn't pay enough for them to be happy, but it allows many people from countries with less to offer than we have a chance to send money home to their families and live a better life.

Your are confusing Cabotage with illegal immigration. Or would you like to give us supporting documention how many illegal immigrants work for Toyota, BMW, KIA, Siemens, SAP, etc. in the US.

A US based carrier is subject to the same laws for who it can employ, no matter who its owners might be. All US carriers have to employ either lawfully admitted foreign nationals on special work visas, or US permanent residents, and indeed, for some jobs, they can only employ full US citizens. There is no difference in these laws if the airline is owned by people in London or Little Rock.

Which is I guess is the point, but as a Bob, I'm not sure that you can actually read, so I guess I'll just bid you a good night, and a happy, transparent, direct, collabrative relationship.

How's that pay raise coming, anyway?

It works great thanks for asking. How is your life?

 

[bluesideup340]

WOW! Cabotage has not nearly the benefit for a US domestic carrier as it does for the Euros. Are you for real?! Sorry but the London-Manchester or Turkey to Ibiza market opportunites are but a FRACTION of the US domestic market.

Where is the market analysis to support this. How do you know about what market opportunity that do or do not exist?

Do you really want to have Ryanair flying point-to-point in the US, with Eastern-European guys who pay 50K for a 73 type and think it's ok to pay for their own parking and uniforms and f-ing RECURRENT SIMS?! Because as much as the regionals suck here SJS in Europe means 300-hours and paying for your job in an F-ing Airbus.

For goodness sake wake up. The ignorance and head-in-the-sand syndrome is stunning.

Let me say SkyBus. That being said it is abviously, an idea, including the bad once, are not limited to foreign ownership or cabotage. If you want to be all up in arms about other people work conditions so be it, but do not confuse the issue with FO or cabotage. In regard to the Eastern European working here in the US. This would require legal immigration of those guys. In the same way as you and I would need work permits in the EU, end of story.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Since everyone is pulling seats out of the market I highly doubt the US domestic market isn't tapped out.

I said the EU market....

This is why it is important to understand the difference between FO and Cabotage.
A US based carrier is subject to the same laws for who it can employ, no matter who its owners might be. All US carriers have to employ either lawfully admitted foreign nationals on special work visas, or US permanent residents, and indeed, for some jobs, they can only employ full US citizens. There is no difference in these laws if the airline is owned by people in London or Little Rock.

You are demonstrating your lack of understanding... read on...

So we do agree, the EU request is not unreasonable.

It depends on the labor protection.....

Again any US based carrier is subject to the same laws for who it can employ, no matter who its owners might be.

You are missing the point... but I will clarify later... read on...

Look at any Mulit National company and give me an example when this occured. Keep in mind foreign ownership is always bound by the local labor law. Hence, it is doubtful american pilots will be based abroad or visa versa.

Ryan Air in Europe... they are a prime example....

Look at Coke, GE, MC, Ford, IBM, J&J, etc. Has their global presents as mulitnational cooperations harmed labor?

How about Toyota, VW, Mercedes, SAP, UBS,etc. Do these company invest and provide jobs here in the US to americans?

Here is tip.. these multi nationals assets don't go eight miles a minute... In other words, thier factories don't fly thru time zones and land in different sovereign states with different laws...

Note the FX accident recently in Japan.. the police investigate the accident.. not a Japanese NTSB.

So they will criminally convict whereas the NTSB will not...

Last but not least. Foreign Ownership and Cabotage are two different things and following the Australian model if structured right benefits all stakeholders.
BTW KLM/AirFrance and the Lufthansa/Brussel/BMI/Swiss operation work very well. No dooms day senario.

You've mentioned no US carrier above.. that is the concern...

I recommend you read up on Ryan Air. The application of labor law is quite mind boggling... In addition, the maritime industry is a great example of what is in store for us....

It all comes down to labor protections in the global economy... those who don't have it.... are utterly screwed... those who do have it... have a tough fight ahead..... for everyone....

 

[aewanabe]

Seriously??

Where is the market analysis to support this. How do you know about what market opportunity that do or do not exist?



Let me say SkyBus. That being said it is abviously, an idea, including the bad once, are not limited to foreign ownership or cabotage. If you want to be all up in arms about other people work conditions so be it, but do not confuse the issue with FO or cabotage. In regard to the Eastern European working here in the US. This would require legal immigration of those guys. In the same way as you and I would need work permits in the EU, end of story.

Is that you Joel Peterson? Okay for market analysis let's look at the intra-European market. The mainline Euro carriers have steadily withdrawn from intra-European flying, to be replaced almost entirely by LCCs and regionals. And again, the working conditions at LCCs in Europe are appalling by our standards. Ryanair is but one example.

Of course I am up in arms about other people's work conditions when they are a harbinger for what could happen to mine. I guarantee you any Cabotage arrangements will include foreign pilots flying the jets. For an example, the current China Air flights from ANC-JFK and Qantas LAX-JFK are definitely flown with their own pilots. The Pan Am hub in Berlin certainly didn't operate with German pilots, did it?