It's time...

[mrtoy2]

It's time. It's time for ALL pilots, not just those at our own carriers to make a stand. Why are we allowing this to be the secret of the industry? Why is it so hard to get the message across to our customers? Why is simple business practices so hard to grasp? The message is this: Your cheap tickets are being subsidized by our paychecks and it must stop! Outside our industry other businesses increase the price of their products in response to cost increases. It would not be adventageous to ask the entire work group to take "conssesions" in their pay to subsidize a customers costs. This would only lead workers to find other jobs that cover their own costs. The oil industry has NO problem charging their customers higher prices in response to the "emotionally driven" prices of oil these days. Even more interesting, people (our customers) PAY these prices! Don't give me the crap about "well we raised prices and our customers went away". We, as a unionized workforce need to make ourselves heard. The way to do this is Demand that we 1)be compensated what we Deserve! 2) Demand that our management teams perform real management! 3) Hold our managers accountable for their mistakes as they would hold us accountable for ours! 4) This needs to be shown to our customers in a VERY PUBLIC WAY! It is the only way that they will understand. whew...had to get that out...JMHO

 

[radarlove]

You sound like Che Gueverra. POWER TO THE PROLETARIAT!

Y'now, the Soviets tried this, as did the Chinese in the Cultural Revolution, power to the workers, baby!

It sounds like you've never even taken an introductory economics class. Or a history class. Or, even, a business class.

 

[majordavid]

You are wrong. Communists are very anti-union. You need to study your own history on the solidarity movement that lead to the collapse of communism in Poland. watch Hugo Chavez in Venezuela with Oil unions Workers have rights in capitalism, and when they are abused and lied to the system falls apart (Enron, Worldcom, Lorenzo, United, countless other economic models to choose from).

 

[73-Driver]

Until demand exceeds supply we are all at the mercy of Capitalism. Only the strong shall survive!

 

[mrtoy2]

You missed my point all together. I'm not pro-union at all. They are a necessary evil IMO. My point is only that Management needs to be held accountable for their failures. It doesn't take sitting through an irrelevant class on theory to understand the practacal. I'm not the one that should have sat through these classes anyways. If YOU look at history, you would learn that this industry 1)doesn't learn from it's mistakes and 2)Doesn't hold managers that have failed accountable. Usually they are recycled to other companies. You only need to look at the failings of Pan Am and Eastern to see this. I AM a student of history and I understand economics better than you might think. What my point is nothing more than charge our customers what it costs to do business not steal money from the employees.

 

[mrtoy2]

If charging customers what it costs to do business causes some airlines to fail, so be it. That is capitalism isn't it? Not a popular oppinion I know. But this is part of holding management accountable.

 

[pilotyip]

The public, who buys the airline ticket, thinks $100K/yr is a great salary. They cannot understand someone making over that number saying they are subsidizing the low price airline ticket. It is a free market, get together with a bunch of your pilot friends and start an airline, charge a "fair ticket price" that will pay your pilots an airline pilot's living wage in the $250-$300K/yr range. I wish you the best of luck, if you pull it off it will be great for the industry.

 

[B6Guy]

Have to Agree

I have to agree that while supply and demand do drive the prices down, to offer prices below cost is suicide. And this is what the industry is doing, mutual suicide.

With load factors as high as they are, [87% last month at B6] and most airlines also seeing very high load factors, I see no reason to keep prices as low as they are.

If the transcon customer has to pay $300 round trip instead of $200, is this going to stop them?? I really don't think so. But the problem is that EVERYONE needs to raise prices, not just one or two carriers. If overnight all the internet shoppers saw the prices go up, then they will just shrug and book flights. The same as they do when the gas guage reads 'E' on their car or SUV. I used to groan when it cost over $25 to fill'er up, now $55 is not unusual. We pay, why not the airline customer too??

Let the consumer pay for the higher price of fuel. I'm not alone in wishing for a pay raise or a larger profit-sharing bonus.

 

[FN FAL]

"I'll take 'Famous Fads' for one hundred dollars..."

• Hoola Hoops
• Mood Rings
• Rock and Roll Music
• Pet Rocks
• Mullets
• Bell Bottoms
• Go-Go Boots
• Disco
• CB Radio
• Jet Airline Travel

 

[Vicman]

hard landing

this passenger had the nerve to rub it in..."Nice landing guys".
\
I quickly and politely replied, "at bargain price you paid for your ticket, you can either have the peanuts or a nice landing, but not both"...he laughed

 

[capt. megadeth]

The public, who buys the airline ticket, thinks $100K/yr is a great salary. They cannot understand someone making over that number saying they are subsidizing the low price airline ticket. It is a free market, get together with a bunch of your pilot friends and start an airline, charge a "fair ticket price" that will pay your pilots an airline pilot's living wage in the $250-$300K/yr range. I wish you the best of luck, if you pull it off it will be great for the industry.

Pilotyip,
We have had this conversation before.
I have yet to see $100K......as a matter of fact, I have yet to see $50K.
My fiancee has yet to see $30K.
$100K is not great if you have to work 4 jobs combined to make it!

 

[bafanguy]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes Capt M, you and I have never seen $100K that is why it is a career goal. you are starting out and if you hang in there you may see it. I on the other hand am heading into the sunset and will never see it. A $100K in 10 years at a career job is a doable target.

 

[FreightNazi]

Pilotyip,
We have had this conversation before.
I have yet to see $100K......as a matter of fact, I have yet to see $50K.
My fiancee has yet to see $30K.
$100K is not great if you have to work 4 jobs combined to make it!

You need to get a new fiance!

 

[mrtoy2]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050514/ap_on_bi_ge/air_fares

This is a start...

Fr8nazi,

I've meet Cpt Mega's fiancee. Pretty nice if you ask me. She doesn't need to find anyone.

 

[slowto250]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

Would sure like to take this post in it's entirety over to the Fracs board. This sort of "big picture" thinking is just what the doctor ordered over there.
I feel for them.... but like watching a child fall several times while learning to walk, think we'll have to just sit back and let them take their lumps like anyone treading new territory. Some of their posts regarding labor/mgmt. issues are not just naive, they're downright comical.

Again Bafanguy, well stated.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes regional pay is ridiculous, however the upward pressure is starting to be felt. I saw it at ATL Air Inc last month. Three regionals had classes they could not fill. Pinnacle had to up the ante, now pays while in ground school. Watch for an increase in regional F/O pay in the next contracts. The $12K figure will not happen in the RJ industry. Adam Smith applies at both the top and the bottom.

 

[mdf]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

That about sums it all up!!

 

[capt. megadeth]

You need to get a new fiance!

No, that's ok, I will keep him, $hitty pay and everything else.

Awwww, mr. toy, thanks.

p.s. it was great to see all you guys tonite!

 

[FN FAL]

Regional pay is absolutely rediculous. It is CRIMINAL to expect someone to perform the duties of a first officer for that kind of money.

More uniformity in pay needs to be brought to the industry.

Its funny that the majors, who can't afford it, pay their pilots alot. But the "Regional" carriers, who can afford it, pay their pilots peanuts...

Things just need to get more reasonable...but if people are willing to work for the current wages and even less (and sometimes for free, and even paying to work) then things will just get worse.

How long before the $12,000 CRJ 700 first year FO ?

Most federal law enforcement jobs don't start out any higher than regional FO pay and most of those require a BA degree. Starting pay for most careers suck, why would it be any different for a 300 hour pilot, who should be thanking his lucky stars to be sitting right seat in a jet, instead of flying banners and flight instructing to build time.

 

[dogg]

ay". We, as a unionized workforce need to make ourselves heard. The way to do this is Demand that we 1)be compensated what we Deserve! 2) Demand that our management teams perform real management! 3) Hold our managers accountable for their mistakes as they would hold us accountable for ours! 4) This needs to be shown to our customers in a VERY PUBLIC WAY! It is the only way that they will understand. whew...had to get that out...JMHO

Well if we were in fact truly a unionized workforce we might have a chance of doing that... A true union would negotiate for all airlines for all seats for all aircraft.....In a true union you would start out as an apprentice not making much and going to school to continue learning about your trade. As you progressed and put in time you would gain further job cards and would be capable of putting in for better and better paying positions until you reached master level and that would be as high as you would go.......What you would not have is college kids flying 90 seat jets and bitching about their pay...Jet jobs would be for those pilots that had obtained the rank of at least journyman.. say after 6000hrs or so....So you would not have airlines trying to drum up business and make profits at the expense of their workers. All 737's would pay the same with the exception of colas and per diem. That way you would have a level labor playing field and successful companies would be differentiated by there ability to read their market and manage their assets and plan for the future(SWA)........Much like successful electrical contracting firms... They come and they go but the well run ones are still here....

To get there with a national union we would first have to completeley overhaul the pilot rating system to include substantial hours in categories and class and second we would have to stop running around acting like a bunch of white collar managers when in fact we are blue collar tradesman......nether one will ever happen so the system will stay broken...........

 

[tarp]

You know I read threads like this and wonder.

Why do you guys try so hard to overthrow all the rules of economics and business?

You can't just "raise the prices" - your customers will go away and before you jump on this sentence there are a number of ways to create a rise in prices but none of them are your simple solutions. Here you go:

1.) Capitalism - let sick airlines die and healthier airlines live. Remove all the stops - no help for anyone - declare bankruptcy and die - let there be an all out price war. Delta offering $19 tickets everywhere, NWA offering $18 tickets everywhere, JetBlue offering $15 tickets everywhere. One by one, companies will go out of business - NOBODY can sustain huges losses like that forever - BUT the stronger the company, the better the chance of survival. So you will lose two, maybe three good sized airlines in this all out capitalistic price war - lose thousands of jobs and leave about a dozen different kinds of carriers who survive. But with hundreds of thousands less seats going everywhere - there is now instant demand - more passengers than seats - whammo, prices go up instantly. Anywhere a company has a monopoly flight path, charge the world to fly there. Ugly or simple elegance - whichever way you look at it - if you just play a simple darwinian game - survival of the fittest - all the survivors win - hey just like those TV shows.

2.) Regulation - or you can have the government come in and TELL everyone how to run their airlines. Company A can fly to these cities and charge this rate, Company B can fly to these cities and charge this rate. Guaranteed profit - but only a small profit - because the government wants socialism - a little piece of the pie for everyone. No greed, no corruption, no overpaying but nobody going on the unemployment line. Instant stagnation for all you pilot types - you will now be literally waiting for a person ahead of you to die - because the government will legislate the amount of lift that can go to any two points.

3.) A workers revolt - Just like in Europe, bring the transportation system to its knees - active and frequent strikes - the union shows the passengers and the companies involved just what happens when nobody shows to work on a given day. Mass disruptions unless you feed your pilots, FA's and rampers a living wage. So what if ALPA breaks the current laws on the books? Isn't it time for one of those fat cats in Virginia to fall on his sword for us? What if the union ignored the law and called for ALPA pilots everywhere in the US to not show for work on Monday? And make the statement that the strikes will continue until wages are increased. Oh you would see some very fast action - suddenly companies will want to "renegotiate" - even if the government comes in with fines and threats - that all takes time and WE KNOW IT. The government moves slow, economics moves fast. You shut down all the ALPA airlines for a day and people will scream murder. Threaten it again and companies will suddenly have to find money - even if it means raising prices - to pay your salary and avoid another strike. And the flying public will hate and curse the people who are flying them to and fro - they will get very mad at YOU for about two weeks because YOU caused the ticket price to increase $10 - so what. Do you think a French bus rider curses out his bus driver everytime he gets on the bus because it now cost 3Francs instead of 2Francs to get to work? No. But that bus rider also knows that if the company doesn't give that bus driver a living wage and six weeks vacation, there won't even be a bus - maybe for days.

4.) Monopolies, oligopolies, mergers - you can buy the competition - get us down to two maybe three airlines. Your choice for flying from LAX to NY is either American, United or Continental - the three survivors of the great airline merger war of 2010. Of course, with only three possible airlines to work for, many pilots are out of a job.

You are smart guys on this board. But you just can't wring your hands and say "Oh, they HAVE to raise the prices!" No, THEY don't - there is no external force on the economic model right now except that there is way too much supply for demand. We can't legally call for a strike (government interference with market forces). The weak bankrupt airlines are not dying (government/judicial interference). The governemnt refuses to reregulate (hmmm, but with this they refuse to interfere). Disallowing mergers and acquisitions to the lack of competition (government interference with market forces).

The box you are in is created by all the things "people" in the form of your government don't want to have happen. All the natural economic factors are being checkmated by regulations. So, where is the pressure relieved in a sealed system - the weakest point - the place it can "leak" and right now folks, that is you and your salary.

Your two greatest potentials for "relief" is a wildcat strike ignoring a regulation and creating a chaotic situation -or- creating a groundswell that asks why do we allow companies in bankruptcy to keep operating for years and years - there's a problem here held up by one or two very power hungry judges.

But just pick one above and go to work - I'd love to see us start getting real wages again. Because the last option is going to take a long time with kids with bright eyes still wanting to fly jets for free - and that is one day in our system will hit equilibrium and at $14K for an FO and $24K for a captain, someone will finally say - sorry, I can't show up to work and fly your $5M jet for a salary so small - I quit.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Tarp,

Well said and very true. As for Corporate Darwinism, unfortunately, those employed by weaker carriers will scream bloody murder if anyone remotely suggests that scenario. Sooner or later, several airlines will cease existence. It's envitable. The question is, should that scenario happen quickly? Or allowed to be dragged out indefinitely while in court proceedings?

I don't know the answers. All I know is that something has to give, sooner or later. And, it won't be pretty either.

HMM

 

[pilotyip]

Why is the present pay structure at 10 years in every airline out there, not living wage? Looking the pay scales for almost everyone, it is near $100K/yr. In my mind, for a job that does not require any formal knowledge development beyond high school, it a pretty good wage. I know I will immediately see, “My brother knows a guy who has fiend that has been at ABC 10 years and only makes $65K”

 

[capt. megadeth]

Jet jobs would be for those pilots that had obtained the rank of at least journyman.. say after 6000hrs or so....

Ooooohhh bogey bogey.......cuz you need 6000 hours to be able to fly the mighty jet.....give me a break

 

[capt. megadeth]

Why is the present pay structure at 10 years in every airline out there, not living wage? Looking the pay scales for almost everyone, it is near $100K/yr. In my mind, for a job that does not require any formal knowledge development beyond high school, it a pretty good wage. I know I will immediately see, “My brother knows a guy who has fiend that has been at ABC 10 years and only makes $65K”

Pilotyip,
Ya don't live in southern Cal, Chicago or New York do ya?

 

[bafanguy]

tarp,


Bravo, Sir !! Dead on !!

Your thoughts expressed, in a much more eloquent way, what I meant when I said that not much could be done except by the "little people...and good luck on that."

Not being a particularly educated person, I can only keep asking my self what happened to all the tough talk about free market forces made by Jimmy Carter and his Band of Merry Men, circa 1978.

Not matter how you slice it, the throes in which the industry finds itself are far from over.

Laughing through the tears !!

 

[reachpilot]

As long as there are flight instructors drooling over the chance to fly "heavy metal" for less money than the guy mowing your lawn, we are all hosed.

 

[100LL... Again!]

In general, the government interference should be minimal. Although, there are times when it might be helpful.

FOr example, what if the stock markets had been left open all through 9-11?

The panicing public might have created an even bigger disaster. A couple of days to cool off might have been a good thing.

If bankruptcy was used for its intended purpose instead of as a normal part of the business cycle, perhaps it would be good too.

Let's let either UAL or USAir live or die on its own. I'm tired of corporate welfare.

 

[100LL... Again!]

As long as there are flight instructors drooling over the chance to fly "heavy metal" for less money than the guy mowing your lawn, we are all hosed.

Bingo!