It's time...

[dogg]

ay". We, as a unionized workforce need to make ourselves heard. The way to do this is Demand that we 1)be compensated what we Deserve! 2) Demand that our management teams perform real management! 3) Hold our managers accountable for their mistakes as they would hold us accountable for ours! 4) This needs to be shown to our customers in a VERY PUBLIC WAY! It is the only way that they will understand. whew...had to get that out...JMHO

Well if we were in fact truly a unionized workforce we might have a chance of doing that... A true union would negotiate for all airlines for all seats for all aircraft.....In a true union you would start out as an apprentice not making much and going to school to continue learning about your trade. As you progressed and put in time you would gain further job cards and would be capable of putting in for better and better paying positions until you reached master level and that would be as high as you would go.......What you would not have is college kids flying 90 seat jets and bitching about their pay...Jet jobs would be for those pilots that had obtained the rank of at least journyman.. say after 6000hrs or so....So you would not have airlines trying to drum up business and make profits at the expense of their workers. All 737's would pay the same with the exception of colas and per diem. That way you would have a level labor playing field and successful companies would be differentiated by there ability to read their market and manage their assets and plan for the future(SWA)........Much like successful electrical contracting firms... They come and they go but the well run ones are still here....

To get there with a national union we would first have to completeley overhaul the pilot rating system to include substantial hours in categories and class and second we would have to stop running around acting like a bunch of white collar managers when in fact we are blue collar tradesman......nether one will ever happen so the system will stay broken...........

 

[tarp]

You know I read threads like this and wonder.

Why do you guys try so hard to overthrow all the rules of economics and business?

You can't just "raise the prices" - your customers will go away and before you jump on this sentence there are a number of ways to create a rise in prices but none of them are your simple solutions. Here you go:

1.) Capitalism - let sick airlines die and healthier airlines live. Remove all the stops - no help for anyone - declare bankruptcy and die - let there be an all out price war. Delta offering $19 tickets everywhere, NWA offering $18 tickets everywhere, JetBlue offering $15 tickets everywhere. One by one, companies will go out of business - NOBODY can sustain huges losses like that forever - BUT the stronger the company, the better the chance of survival. So you will lose two, maybe three good sized airlines in this all out capitalistic price war - lose thousands of jobs and leave about a dozen different kinds of carriers who survive. But with hundreds of thousands less seats going everywhere - there is now instant demand - more passengers than seats - whammo, prices go up instantly. Anywhere a company has a monopoly flight path, charge the world to fly there. Ugly or simple elegance - whichever way you look at it - if you just play a simple darwinian game - survival of the fittest - all the survivors win - hey just like those TV shows.

2.) Regulation - or you can have the government come in and TELL everyone how to run their airlines. Company A can fly to these cities and charge this rate, Company B can fly to these cities and charge this rate. Guaranteed profit - but only a small profit - because the government wants socialism - a little piece of the pie for everyone. No greed, no corruption, no overpaying but nobody going on the unemployment line. Instant stagnation for all you pilot types - you will now be literally waiting for a person ahead of you to die - because the government will legislate the amount of lift that can go to any two points.

3.) A workers revolt - Just like in Europe, bring the transportation system to its knees - active and frequent strikes - the union shows the passengers and the companies involved just what happens when nobody shows to work on a given day. Mass disruptions unless you feed your pilots, FA's and rampers a living wage. So what if ALPA breaks the current laws on the books? Isn't it time for one of those fat cats in Virginia to fall on his sword for us? What if the union ignored the law and called for ALPA pilots everywhere in the US to not show for work on Monday? And make the statement that the strikes will continue until wages are increased. Oh you would see some very fast action - suddenly companies will want to "renegotiate" - even if the government comes in with fines and threats - that all takes time and WE KNOW IT. The government moves slow, economics moves fast. You shut down all the ALPA airlines for a day and people will scream murder. Threaten it again and companies will suddenly have to find money - even if it means raising prices - to pay your salary and avoid another strike. And the flying public will hate and curse the people who are flying them to and fro - they will get very mad at YOU for about two weeks because YOU caused the ticket price to increase $10 - so what. Do you think a French bus rider curses out his bus driver everytime he gets on the bus because it now cost 3Francs instead of 2Francs to get to work? No. But that bus rider also knows that if the company doesn't give that bus driver a living wage and six weeks vacation, there won't even be a bus - maybe for days.

4.) Monopolies, oligopolies, mergers - you can buy the competition - get us down to two maybe three airlines. Your choice for flying from LAX to NY is either American, United or Continental - the three survivors of the great airline merger war of 2010. Of course, with only three possible airlines to work for, many pilots are out of a job.

You are smart guys on this board. But you just can't wring your hands and say "Oh, they HAVE to raise the prices!" No, THEY don't - there is no external force on the economic model right now except that there is way too much supply for demand. We can't legally call for a strike (government interference with market forces). The weak bankrupt airlines are not dying (government/judicial interference). The governemnt refuses to reregulate (hmmm, but with this they refuse to interfere). Disallowing mergers and acquisitions to the lack of competition (government interference with market forces).

The box you are in is created by all the things "people" in the form of your government don't want to have happen. All the natural economic factors are being checkmated by regulations. So, where is the pressure relieved in a sealed system - the weakest point - the place it can "leak" and right now folks, that is you and your salary.

Your two greatest potentials for "relief" is a wildcat strike ignoring a regulation and creating a chaotic situation -or- creating a groundswell that asks why do we allow companies in bankruptcy to keep operating for years and years - there's a problem here held up by one or two very power hungry judges.

But just pick one above and go to work - I'd love to see us start getting real wages again. Because the last option is going to take a long time with kids with bright eyes still wanting to fly jets for free - and that is one day in our system will hit equilibrium and at $14K for an FO and $24K for a captain, someone will finally say - sorry, I can't show up to work and fly your $5M jet for a salary so small - I quit.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Tarp,

Well said and very true. As for Corporate Darwinism, unfortunately, those employed by weaker carriers will scream bloody murder if anyone remotely suggests that scenario. Sooner or later, several airlines will cease existence. It's envitable. The question is, should that scenario happen quickly? Or allowed to be dragged out indefinitely while in court proceedings?

I don't know the answers. All I know is that something has to give, sooner or later. And, it won't be pretty either.

HMM

 

[pilotyip]

Why is the present pay structure at 10 years in every airline out there, not living wage? Looking the pay scales for almost everyone, it is near $100K/yr. In my mind, for a job that does not require any formal knowledge development beyond high school, it a pretty good wage. I know I will immediately see, “My brother knows a guy who has fiend that has been at ABC 10 years and only makes $65K”

 

[capt. megadeth]

Jet jobs would be for those pilots that had obtained the rank of at least journyman.. say after 6000hrs or so....

Ooooohhh bogey bogey.......cuz you need 6000 hours to be able to fly the mighty jet.....give me a break

 

[capt. megadeth]

Why is the present pay structure at 10 years in every airline out there, not living wage? Looking the pay scales for almost everyone, it is near $100K/yr. In my mind, for a job that does not require any formal knowledge development beyond high school, it a pretty good wage. I know I will immediately see, “My brother knows a guy who has fiend that has been at ABC 10 years and only makes $65K”

Pilotyip,
Ya don't live in southern Cal, Chicago or New York do ya?

 

[bafanguy]

tarp,


Bravo, Sir !! Dead on !!

Your thoughts expressed, in a much more eloquent way, what I meant when I said that not much could be done except by the "little people...and good luck on that."

Not being a particularly educated person, I can only keep asking my self what happened to all the tough talk about free market forces made by Jimmy Carter and his Band of Merry Men, circa 1978.

Not matter how you slice it, the throes in which the industry finds itself are far from over.

Laughing through the tears !!

 

[reachpilot]

As long as there are flight instructors drooling over the chance to fly "heavy metal" for less money than the guy mowing your lawn, we are all hosed.

 

[100LL... Again!]

In general, the government interference should be minimal. Although, there are times when it might be helpful.

FOr example, what if the stock markets had been left open all through 9-11?

The panicing public might have created an even bigger disaster. A couple of days to cool off might have been a good thing.

If bankruptcy was used for its intended purpose instead of as a normal part of the business cycle, perhaps it would be good too.

Let's let either UAL or USAir live or die on its own. I'm tired of corporate welfare.

 

[100LL... Again!]

As long as there are flight instructors drooling over the chance to fly "heavy metal" for less money than the guy mowing your lawn, we are all hosed.

Bingo!

 

[pilotyip]

Depends

Capt. M, the market will adjust if the wages will not support the pilot base by attracting qualified applicants. Like wise in Des Moines, $65K might be the market rate. Adam Smith rules.

 

[mrtoy2]

After 9/11, the industry was hurt by a lack of customers flying. The industry responded by lowering fares (supply and demand yes I really do get it). This lead to a few carriers becoming insolvent (U.S. Air and UAL being the big ones). Then the rest of the industry "smelled blood in the water" and used their fares to try to hurt the insolvent carriers to the point of extinction. But the US govt. stepped in and helped the weaker carriers with loans and grants. I was at one of those carriers and am grateful that that did happen. The problem, I think, lies in the bankrupt carriers right now. I do believe that corporate darwinism should happen to a point. That point is that I don't believe that some carriers should be allowed to charge fares that, outside of bankrupcy, would be predetory. Staying in bankrupcy for as long as some carriers have without a business plan is criminal, IMHO. My original point was that we, and it doesn't just have to be pilots. Other groups should also put their foot down. You are exactlly right about this job not needing anything more than a High School education level. Anyone who knows me personally understands my grief about this. Unfortunately, our industry "requires" a college degree. The way the industry is headed, those 10 year salaries of $100k aren't going to be there in 10 years. I used to be that guy flight instructing saying to myself that I wont care about pay as long as I am flying something that I like. Well, reality has in fact set in. My reality right know involves consuting (furlough). Watching the industry fall apart is frustrating to say the least. Watching employee groups get their pensions and other benefits get ripped out is frustrating. Not doing anything about it is shameful of all of us. I'm NOT advocating a strike in any way! All I'm saying is that there needs to be pressure from within all of the carriers to have a plan, not just a plan to bleed other carriers dry with our paychecks (as a whole not just pilots in general. It takes more than pilots to move an aircraft.).

 

[dogg]

Jet jobs would be for those pilots that had obtained the rank of at least journyman.. say after 6000hrs or so....

Ooooohhh bogey bogey.......cuz you need 6000 hours to be able to fly the mighty jet.....give me a break

Well lets see, that is not what I said. What i said was that you would need to obtain a "journeyman card" before you would be allowed to fly that type of equipment and maybe it should be 8000 hrs.....The problem for you mega d is that you dont have an understanding of how a union or should I say a real union works....

You could fly that jet after 500 hrs or less and do it as well as the guy with 8000hrs but why would we as the union allow that. It would have direct bearing on how much our hours and years of service would be worth.....Which is exactly what is happening right now......

Every airline is taking 500-1000hr pilots and inserting them into the right seat of 90 seat jets where they do a good, safe and efficient job. And after a couple thousand hrs they insert them into the left seat where they do a good, safe and efficient job. And we all know that if you can safely fly 90 seats so can you safely fly 290 seats. And all of this is possible because sceduled 121 airlines have lots of support and structure and and they are operating very safe technologically advanced aircraft. And training now is focused much more on how we mitigate a problem and get back to normal thus increasing our safety margins during abnormal operations by a huge margin....

So why would any airline manager who is tasked with delivering a cost effective work force be willing to pay what pilots used to be paid and I am talking about the value of the dollar not the number of dollars(but that is a whole other lesson). If I am that manager I will pay that 500 hr copilot 25-40,000 a year and that 2500 hr captain 55-85,000 a year and I will slowly as they become available add larger aircraft to my fleet so that I will eventually have 100-120 seats being flown for those wages with slight increases over time.....And the managers at the larger airlines with whom I have agreemnts to operate these airplanes will notice this and they will begin to consider my wages for seats as "market wages" and they will negotiate along those lines.
And out of nowhere 125,000-135,000 becomes a darn good living and that is where all passenger pilot wages are headed. Unlike our real union brothers who have a card in their pocket that entitles them to a certain level of respect and compensation for their years and years of experience, we have nothing. What value does a 8 year 8000 hr airbus co-pilot have when his job can be done just as well by a new entrant in the field..NONE... And what value does an 18 year, 18,000 hr 757captain have when he too can be replaced by a guy with one sixth his time and experience...NONE.....
Somewhere along the way, the current big unions missed the opportunity to creat a "guild based union" and instead opted for the current, self-serving mess that has done nothing to protect the value of time and experience for its members....It is done and there is no going back.... This time the job has changed forever and the only pilots that will really make money are the hired guns that haul billions of dollars of revenue around the world every night for the few select carriers and even they had better watch their back doors carefully...Time to move on to better times somewhere else...