It's time...

[mrtoy2]

It's time. It's time for ALL pilots, not just those at our own carriers to make a stand. Why are we allowing this to be the secret of the industry? Why is it so hard to get the message across to our customers? Why is simple business practices so hard to grasp? The message is this: Your cheap tickets are being subsidized by our paychecks and it must stop! Outside our industry other businesses increase the price of their products in response to cost increases. It would not be adventageous to ask the entire work group to take "conssesions" in their pay to subsidize a customers costs. This would only lead workers to find other jobs that cover their own costs. The oil industry has NO problem charging their customers higher prices in response to the "emotionally driven" prices of oil these days. Even more interesting, people (our customers) PAY these prices! Don't give me the crap about "well we raised prices and our customers went away". We, as a unionized workforce need to make ourselves heard. The way to do this is Demand that we 1)be compensated what we Deserve! 2) Demand that our management teams perform real management! 3) Hold our managers accountable for their mistakes as they would hold us accountable for ours! 4) This needs to be shown to our customers in a VERY PUBLIC WAY! It is the only way that they will understand. whew...had to get that out...JMHO

 

[radarlove]

You sound like Che Gueverra. POWER TO THE PROLETARIAT!

Y'now, the Soviets tried this, as did the Chinese in the Cultural Revolution, power to the workers, baby!

It sounds like you've never even taken an introductory economics class. Or a history class. Or, even, a business class.

 

[majordavid]

You are wrong. Communists are very anti-union. You need to study your own history on the solidarity movement that lead to the collapse of communism in Poland. watch Hugo Chavez in Venezuela with Oil unions Workers have rights in capitalism, and when they are abused and lied to the system falls apart (Enron, Worldcom, Lorenzo, United, countless other economic models to choose from).

 

[73-Driver]

Until demand exceeds supply we are all at the mercy of Capitalism. Only the strong shall survive!

 

[mrtoy2]

You missed my point all together. I'm not pro-union at all. They are a necessary evil IMO. My point is only that Management needs to be held accountable for their failures. It doesn't take sitting through an irrelevant class on theory to understand the practacal. I'm not the one that should have sat through these classes anyways. If YOU look at history, you would learn that this industry 1)doesn't learn from it's mistakes and 2)Doesn't hold managers that have failed accountable. Usually they are recycled to other companies. You only need to look at the failings of Pan Am and Eastern to see this. I AM a student of history and I understand economics better than you might think. What my point is nothing more than charge our customers what it costs to do business not steal money from the employees.

 

[mrtoy2]

If charging customers what it costs to do business causes some airlines to fail, so be it. That is capitalism isn't it? Not a popular oppinion I know. But this is part of holding management accountable.

 

[pilotyip]

The public, who buys the airline ticket, thinks $100K/yr is a great salary. They cannot understand someone making over that number saying they are subsidizing the low price airline ticket. It is a free market, get together with a bunch of your pilot friends and start an airline, charge a "fair ticket price" that will pay your pilots an airline pilot's living wage in the $250-$300K/yr range. I wish you the best of luck, if you pull it off it will be great for the industry.

 

[B6Guy]

Have to Agree

I have to agree that while supply and demand do drive the prices down, to offer prices below cost is suicide. And this is what the industry is doing, mutual suicide.

With load factors as high as they are, [87% last month at B6] and most airlines also seeing very high load factors, I see no reason to keep prices as low as they are.

If the transcon customer has to pay $300 round trip instead of $200, is this going to stop them?? I really don't think so. But the problem is that EVERYONE needs to raise prices, not just one or two carriers. If overnight all the internet shoppers saw the prices go up, then they will just shrug and book flights. The same as they do when the gas guage reads 'E' on their car or SUV. I used to groan when it cost over $25 to fill'er up, now $55 is not unusual. We pay, why not the airline customer too??

Let the consumer pay for the higher price of fuel. I'm not alone in wishing for a pay raise or a larger profit-sharing bonus.

 

[FN FAL]

"I'll take 'Famous Fads' for one hundred dollars..."

• Hoola Hoops
• Mood Rings
• Rock and Roll Music
• Pet Rocks
• Mullets
• Bell Bottoms
• Go-Go Boots
• Disco
• CB Radio
• Jet Airline Travel

 

[Vicman]

hard landing

this passenger had the nerve to rub it in..."Nice landing guys".
\
I quickly and politely replied, "at bargain price you paid for your ticket, you can either have the peanuts or a nice landing, but not both"...he laughed

 

[capt. megadeth]

The public, who buys the airline ticket, thinks $100K/yr is a great salary. They cannot understand someone making over that number saying they are subsidizing the low price airline ticket. It is a free market, get together with a bunch of your pilot friends and start an airline, charge a "fair ticket price" that will pay your pilots an airline pilot's living wage in the $250-$300K/yr range. I wish you the best of luck, if you pull it off it will be great for the industry.

Pilotyip,
We have had this conversation before.
I have yet to see $100K......as a matter of fact, I have yet to see $50K.
My fiancee has yet to see $30K.
$100K is not great if you have to work 4 jobs combined to make it!

 

[bafanguy]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes Capt M, you and I have never seen $100K that is why it is a career goal. you are starting out and if you hang in there you may see it. I on the other hand am heading into the sunset and will never see it. A $100K in 10 years at a career job is a doable target.

 

[FreightNazi]

Pilotyip,
We have had this conversation before.
I have yet to see $100K......as a matter of fact, I have yet to see $50K.
My fiancee has yet to see $30K.
$100K is not great if you have to work 4 jobs combined to make it!

You need to get a new fiance!

 

[mrtoy2]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050514/ap_on_bi_ge/air_fares

This is a start...

Fr8nazi,

I've meet Cpt Mega's fiancee. Pretty nice if you ask me. She doesn't need to find anyone.

 

[slowto250]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

Would sure like to take this post in it's entirety over to the Fracs board. This sort of "big picture" thinking is just what the doctor ordered over there.
I feel for them.... but like watching a child fall several times while learning to walk, think we'll have to just sit back and let them take their lumps like anyone treading new territory. Some of their posts regarding labor/mgmt. issues are not just naive, they're downright comical.

Again Bafanguy, well stated.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes regional pay is ridiculous, however the upward pressure is starting to be felt. I saw it at ATL Air Inc last month. Three regionals had classes they could not fill. Pinnacle had to up the ante, now pays while in ground school. Watch for an increase in regional F/O pay in the next contracts. The $12K figure will not happen in the RJ industry. Adam Smith applies at both the top and the bottom.

 

[mdf]

mrtoy2,


I certainly agree with your frustration and have felt it a time or two in my 35 years in the airline business but you must look at history. There are two overriding facts that will emerge:

1) The public doesn't care about your plight as an airline employee, or what you feel you deserve; they never have and never will because that's YOUR problem, not theirs. Appealing to a public that doesn't care about your cause makes you look foolish. You and your colleagues just have to do what you feel is necessary/appropriate without any notion of public support ( good luck on this one, too ). I've seen many empassioned, well-intended statements over the years about how we need to appeal to the public. I cringe every time at how bad this makes us look. You are the bum on the street. When's the last time you gave one $100 and took him home for a good meal. His plight isn't your problem. In fact, you're just a bit afraid of him.

2) Airline management has NEVER been held accountable for what they have done; they never have and never will ( assuming no criminal activity ). Look back at the history of the airline industry. Lorenzo, you say ? Do you really think this guy was actually held accountable in any material, meaningful way ? No.

Being held "accountable" means means you paid a price for your misdeeds...you felt pain...when you woke up this morning, no part of your life today was the same because of what you did yesterday...your future is changed...your family is affected. You know...like what would happen to you if you crossed swords with the feds and lost your license because you screwed up. That, my friend, is accountability. However, only the little people, like you, are held "accountable" in any meaningful way. Get used to it...just the way the world is...don't even waste any adrenalin on it. Welcome to life as a "little person".

I usually stay out of these discussions where opinion parades as fact, but you've touched on an area where I'm very sure I have an accurate perspective after a working lifetime in airline flying.

I feel your pain, Bro, I really do. I just think there is a limited amount that can be done by anyone other than the "little people"...and good luck on that one.

That about sums it all up!!

 

[capt. megadeth]

You need to get a new fiance!

No, that's ok, I will keep him, $hitty pay and everything else.

Awwww, mr. toy, thanks.

p.s. it was great to see all you guys tonite!

 

[FN FAL]

Regional pay is absolutely rediculous. It is CRIMINAL to expect someone to perform the duties of a first officer for that kind of money.

More uniformity in pay needs to be brought to the industry.

Its funny that the majors, who can't afford it, pay their pilots alot. But the "Regional" carriers, who can afford it, pay their pilots peanuts...

Things just need to get more reasonable...but if people are willing to work for the current wages and even less (and sometimes for free, and even paying to work) then things will just get worse.

How long before the $12,000 CRJ 700 first year FO ?

Most federal law enforcement jobs don't start out any higher than regional FO pay and most of those require a BA degree. Starting pay for most careers suck, why would it be any different for a 300 hour pilot, who should be thanking his lucky stars to be sitting right seat in a jet, instead of flying banners and flight instructing to build time.