It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[dh82dvr]

I

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

I would say its an improvement, but as to where we ALL should be its not high end.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Some get it, some don't:

How about looking at the freakin' simple fact: they are going from low end to very high end. Period.

Doesn't get it.

And again the question hangs unanswered...why do you care what other SWA pilots earn? Does it reduce your pay somehow? Or is it just an excuse to staple 650 AAI F/Os, ban them from upgrading for a decade and ensuring you jump the upgrade line?

I think the answer is obvious.

Upgrades have more to due with money than QOL since we all take a QOL hit when we upgrade.... I do however think fair and equitable means that those gains should not come at my expense.

Sort of gets it...But, again, the primary goal of Mr. Beech is that he wants to upgrade out of seniority before 650 AAI pilots. The junior F/Os dream!

Dumb *ss! Tranny is a sub-par airline. Remember not ONE swa pilot had an application to be a pilot at your exceptional(?) Airline..

Totally out to lunch. titan somehow believes that his third world entry jet gear jerking job qualifies him as a "superpilot" because the tin is painted blue.

Get a clue, titan. Lufthansa puts 350 hour ab initio pilots with wet ink commecial licenses in the right seat of 737s and they do just as good a job as you do. Probalby better, because they have some humility.

I don't hate at all, just refuting his statement that AAI is a low paying LCC....A 32 % loss of seniority is a bitter pill to swallow. Would you vote yes for something like that?

Gets it.

Fred,

You instantly qualify as a hater if you express an opinion contrary to SWA groupthink. You may be forced in the future to keep rational thought you yourself if you intend to succeed in their "culture." Be sure to get a rayon flag tie and a big watch so you blend in.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Fuji What I get is that I'm trying not to lose the retirements that my side of this acquisition brings to the table. Thats what my upgrade date is based on. All this list does is keep me from moving backwards.
Just to clarify your position. Do you believe that those upgrades due to SWA retirements should go to AAI not SWAPA pilots?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s.

Career expectations was introduced as a way to keep pilots whose airline consisted of narrowbody equipment off the widebody equipment of their merger partner. It was, in effect, just a way of relegating those "inferior" narrowbody pilots from the high paying widebody international flying.

It was, to put it bluntly, a seniority grab. Those pilots who were hired at the widebody operator thought they were "entitled" to those seats because, after all, the narrowbody guys had no "expectation" of ever flying one.

Its the same thing you guys are trying to do to AAI pilots, only you're using pay as the "career expectation".

The single biggest mistake ALPA has made in 50 years was rolling over to UAL pilots in the early '90s and removing DoH as a criteria for SLI mergers and replacing it with "career expectations." And the whole reason they did it was to keep USAir pilots "in their place" in a merger that never went through.

Look, fair is fair. At some point, you're all going to be one group. If SWA persists in trying to make AAI guys second class citizens by stapleing 650 pilots and banning them from upgrading, YOU as a Captain are going to have CRM problems when you fly with them.

Do you really think those stapled pilots aren't going to have a list of guys who jumped the line ahead of them? Your vaunted "SWA culture" is going to take a huge hit. There are still guys who are chapped about the AS/JA SLI and that went down in 1987.

Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Every single red herring you try to apply to screw the AAI pilots is bogus and deep down you know it. You're just trying to advance yourselves at the expense of other guys you're going to have to see every day for the rest of your careers.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

A lot of people are questioning the AT MC and their decision to accept a deal like this. If the AT pilots don't like it as a whole, it has to go back for rework, and that could lead to arbitration, which is a gamble for each side. If the SWA pilots want more from this deal, they may want to ask for it FROM MANAGEMENT, not take it from your future brothers and sisters. Ask for a small raise or stock for your participation.



OYS

I think I understand why they accepted this deal. They get raises, keep their seats, and the vast majority will only be bidding against other AAI pilots on a monthly basis. If thats not enough their MEC or membership have the right to vote it down and make their case in front of the arbitration panel. If they choose that route they might lose something from the above list.
I don't see where the SWAPA pilots are taking anything from our future bothers and sisters in the AIP. It's by and large nuetral for us as I have explained at length in this thread. All it really does is allow us to keep our upgrade based on our retirements.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s.

Career expectations was introduced as a way to keep pilots whose airline consisted of narrowbody equipment off the widebody equipment of their merger partner. It was, in effect, just a way of relegating those "inferior" narrowbody pilots from the high paying widebody international flying.

It was, to put it bluntly, a seniority grab. Those pilots who were hired at the widebody operator thought they were "entitled" to those seats because, after all, the narrowbody guys had no "expectation" of ever flying one.

Its the same thing you guys are trying to do to AAI pilots, only you're using pay as the "career expectation".

The single biggest mistake ALPA has made in 50 years was rolling over to UAL pilots in the early '90s and removing DoH as a criteria for SLI mergers and replacing it with "career expectations." And the whole reason they did it was to keep USAir pilots "in their place" in a merger that never went through.

Look, fair is fair. At some point, you're all going to be one group. If SWA persists in trying to make AAI guys second class citizens by stapleing 650 pilots and banning them from upgrading, YOU as a Captain are going to have CRM problems when you fly with them.

Do you really think those stapled pilots aren't going to have a list of guys who jumped the line ahead of them? Your vaunted "SWA culture" is going to take a huge hit. There are still guys who are chapped about the AS/JA SLI and that went down in 1987.

Really, guys. Get over yourselves. Every single red herring you try to apply to screw the AAI pilots is bogus and deep down you know it. You're just trying to advance yourselves at the expense of other guys you're going to have to see every day for the rest of your careers.

Fuji OK I'll play. Lets, as you suggested, abandon the premis that conditions that existed before the acquisition should me maintained after the acquistion. You like a DOH solution. I'll go with that as long as there is a complete system rebid based on that list afterwards. We would have to because the conditions that were in place prior to the acquisition are meaningless afterwards. Therefore there would be no way that a 6 year guy should remain a captain while a 10 year guy is an f/o.

 

[scoreboardII]

Your entire argument is based on a faulty premise, i.e. that the conditions that were in force before the merger should remain in force after the merger. Again, the whole "career expectations" b.s. .

So you agree seat locks are faulty? Good.

 

[PCL_128]

All it really does is allow us to keep our upgrade based on our retirements.

I agree that you should keep your upgrades based on your retirements. What I don't agree with is that you should get the extra upgrade slots that come from the deliveries of our airplane orders, ensuring that not a single AirTran FO upgrades for the next 13 years, with many not upgrading for well over 20 years. What I also don't agree with is our captains being mixed in with your FOs, ensuring that our guys stay stuck on the bottom on reserve as SWA FOs upgrade ahead of them, even though many of them were hired later. None of this is remotely "fair and equitable."

 

[Lear70]

Here's a challenge to every troll, tranny, and hater on here: name ONE real thing that a Swapa pilot will get out of this that an AT pilot will not??

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I agree that you should keep your upgrades based on your retirements. What I don't agree with is that you should get the extra upgrade slots that come from the deliveries of our airplane orders, ensuring that not a single AirTran FO upgrades for the next 13 years, with many not upgrading for well over 20 years. What I also don't agree with is our captains being mixed in with your FOs, ensuring that our guys stay stuck on the bottom on reserve as SWA FOs upgrade ahead of them, even though many of them were hired later. None of this is remotely "fair and equitable."

PCL Your opinion is based on the assumption that AAI would have continued to grown minus the acquisition. Can you ensure that had the acquisition not happened that AAI would have grown and not sold off those delivery slots? Can you promise me that without the acquisition that AAI management would have not farmed out your flying to Skywest or someone else and then shrank your fleet while maintaining the AAI system ASMs?
There will be no extra upgrade slots based on your deliveries. Welcome to the reality of the no growth environment. SWA has lots of deliveries too but deliveries don't equal upgrade slots without fleet growth. There would be no upgrades at AAI without fleet growth becuase you have no retirements. I can say with certainty that there would be upgrades at SWA even in a zero growth environment. If there is growth based on anything the AAI pilots will benefit along with the SWA pilots and the upgrade dates will move forward for everyone. Whats your upgrade date at AAI in a no growth environment? Mine at SWA is 17 years out.
The other thing you are missing is that very few of your captains will be stuck on reserve in the Southwest system. Most will be living in an AAI bubble either in ATL or on the 717.