It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[Sacha]

I'm with ya brother, tear it up. Start over.

 

[Music]

Music,

Thanks for the rational discussion.

Gup

No problem. It's the least I can do when I at appears that I am pouring gasoline on a fire.

 

[Sacha]

The morning I heard about the air tran merger, acquisition or whatever, I was driving to work and my one of my Delta friends called and told me the news. He asked what I thought was going to happen with the SLI and even though I was half asleep I pondered for about 2 seconds and said "arbitration. Guaranteed.". When he asked why with our pay and decent mgt etc. would they do that? Simple. Any pilot group that votes 98% to strike in this economy with so many highly qualified furloughed or under employed pilots who would cross their picket line in a heartbeat won't even flinch at going to arbitration. They have nothing to lose compared to that. He said I was absolutely right. What I did not predict was how many fellow SWA pilots would be even more p'off.

 

[jonjuan]

The morning I heard about the air tran merger, acquisition or whatever, I was driving to work and my one of my Delta friends called and told me the news. He asked what I thought was going to happen with the SLI and even though I was half asleep I pondered for about 2 seconds and said "arbitration. Guaranteed.". When he asked why with our pay and decent mgt etc. would they do that? Simple. Any pilot group that votes 98% to strike in this economy with so many highly qualified furloughed or under employed pilots who would cross their picket line in a heartbeat won't even flinch at going to arbitration. They have nothing to lose compared to that. He said I was absolutely right. What I did not predict was how many fellow SWA pilots would be even more p'off.

And I thought one had to have at least a State college education to get hired at SWA. Apparently not.

 

[Sacha]

Jj

So I was wrong? Why the insult? I guess this means you are voting yes. Well good for you.

 

[Empennage]

The one thing being left out on all of these threads is what arbitration does accomplish and what it does not accomplish. What is does is a senioirty list. Period.

All the discussion in regards to how complicated the AIP is simply ironic. Especially those stating that is the reason they are voting no. The arbitrated solution, in the end, would be the most complicated and convoluted solution we could ever dream up.

Lets face it, the AIP is a big bill to swallow for both parties. If we want to discuss voting no and continuing to arbitration in a hypothetical sense, than lets discuss any and all implementation post arbitration. To be clear I am not referring to fear tactics and parking airplanes. I am pointing out the implementation process, who handles the implementation, bump and flush, fences, ect.

We need to all be honest here.

 

[dicko]

I think we will be playing Russian Roulette with a pistol not a revolver if this goes to arbitration. The sad thing is you and I will be sitting directly next to Slick and Big Sis when they pull the trigger. I hope I'm wrong...........

Maybe you should leave 'handguns' out of your post. Perhaps velvet and astroglide would suit you better.

 

[dicko]

The morning I heard about the air tran merger, acquisition or whatever, I was driving to work and my one of my Delta friends called and told me the news. He asked what I thought was going to happen with the SLI and even though I was half asleep I pondered for about 2 seconds and said "arbitration. Guaranteed.". When he asked why with our pay and decent mgt etc. would they do that? Simple. Any pilot group that votes 98% to strike in this economy with so many highly qualified furloughed or under employed pilots who would cross their picket line in a heartbeat won't even flinch at going to arbitration. They have nothing to lose compared to that. He said I was absolutely right. What I did not predict was how many fellow SWA pilots would be even more p'off.

You're right. Unfortunately you overestimated ALPA and AirTran pilots. Refer to Kharma Police's post.

The rot is deep .... Real deep.

 

[On Your Six]

Depends where you're at with regard to Date of Hire.

I lost DoH + 2 years... unfortunately, that's the two years that SWA hired more F/O's than ever before in their history (mid '06 to mid '08). My 2 year loss cost me almost 1,500 numbers.

There's no "perfect solution".

You sound like it's a done deal. Is it?


OYS

 

[Khaver01]

?

...by

 

[Flycatcher99]

Doesn't get it.

And again the question hangs unanswered...why do you care what other SWA pilots earn? Does it reduce your pay somehow? Or is it just an excuse to staple 650 AAI F/Os, ban them from upgrading for a decade and ensuring you jump the upgrade line?

I think the answer is obvious.

I don't care what the acquired pilots earn, up until they make more than a SWA pilot makes for the same longevity. That's wrong, and if you're honest, you'd agree.

Otherwise, no, I don't mind that they are making a windfall increase in salary and benefits. I'm honestly glad for them. You know what will be even more enjoyable than seeing their eyes light up on the 5th and 20th of every month? Seeing their eyes light up when they see our rigs, or the motherlode they can pull in on a reroute, making premium for a moveup in report time or a reroute that gets them in to an overnight 5 minutes later than scheduled. Milk and honey doth flow. I know you think I'm embelleshing for effect. These guys will see. You won't, of course, but they will.

As for stapling 650 guys, I'm sorry, but that is not unreasonable, not with the increase in career earnings they will see. And if delayed upgrade is a problem, be assured that SWA FOs like myself will share in the misery. There will be no upgrades for quite a while, between the merging of operations, the pulling back in cities served, and the adjustment of pilot manning models.

 

[Flycatcher99]

2 Things:

1. Upgrade in the next decade (and none of us, even this AIP's cheerleaders, are trying to push the "virtual upgrade by pay" argument - it's not the same as upgrading. Most of us have spent the majority of our careers in the left seat. We like it there, and so do you. It's OK to say so. Really.

2. Override pay for flying for someone junior to you by Date of Hire. You get a 25% override to your existing rates if you get a line with someone junior to you by DoH as your CA. We don't when the shoe goes on the other foot, and it does by the end of the 9 year upgrade lock-out, and stays that way for another decade, much longer than your guys will have to fly with ours and in much higher numbers (there are over 1,500 guys who will be senior to me with lesser Dates of Hire).

I'm not angry about either of those, although I'm not thrilled by the first one (a 9 year lock-out on upgrades? Even for our own top 20 senior guys who were next to upgrade in the next few months in which their upgrade class was cancelled just prior to vacancy notice because of this deal?).

Just playing Devil's Advocate that there ARE benefits for the SWA pilots from this. Never said there shouldn't be.

GhettoBeechJet gave you 50% on this, but I can't be that generous. He already mentioned the cessation of upgrades for both sides, so that answers your #1.

As for #2, SWA got the 1.25 for flying with a junior captain. In return, and specifically for the reason that we got the 1.25, ALPA demanded "me-too", and received from SWA mgmt $500k, which they decided to disperse as increased longevity pay for your senior FO's.

We got nothing that you didn't get. The same cannot be said in reverse.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I hate to piss in your wheaties but you speaketh with forked tongue

12 yr 737/narrowbody captain pay, as taken from AirlinePilotCentral

Alaska-177/hr
DAL-174/hr
AMR-166/hr
AAI-162/hr
JetBlue-159/hr
CO-150/hr
US Air-138/hr
UAL-137/hr

Your simple fact is in error

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

 

[On Your Six]

If this goes to arbitration, then I will support the 40 year play book. Or even something along the linesof: all AT guys start at 1st year longevity Pay with probation and change Captain upgrades to require at least 5 years SWA longevity. The Captains seat is essentially a management / leadership position. A plane is a plane, and we are all good enough sticks, but in the real world, aquireing leadership usually picks who the bosses are in the "merger."

Yeah, right! The arbitrator would tell you what you would get. You need to review what has recently happened in the "real world."


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

The real question is why haven't you agreed on a joint contract prior to your SLI, the same way the ONLY smooth merger has gone so far? What are you afraid of?


OYS

 

[Flycatcher99]

The real question is why haven't you agreed on a joint contract prior to your SLI, the same way the ONLY smooth merger has gone so far? What are you afraid of?


OYS

Um, two different unions?

 

[On Your Six]

Um, two different unions?

Um, you could agree on payrates and work rules? How about settling on SWA's? Maybe a slight raise or extra stock for your participation? But, you want something from the AT guys, when GK made the decision to buy them, not SWAPA. That is the problem. If you want more, ask the people above you who can give it to you, not people with less that didn't decide on their fate. It works out for them, sure, until they see what you have in store for them.


OYS

 

[Cometman]

ALPA is using ALL of the negotiating timeline. IF it reaches your membership and IF it's voted down by either side there will be zero time left to negotiate anything.

I think it's two fold. First, ALPA doesn't WANT any time on the clock when they take their last shot and secondly, the Jetblue drive is decided on the day before your MEC will vote.

Can't disagree with the remainder of your post.

Gup

I think the parties can continue to negotiate even during arbitration. They can always settle before a ruling. I believe it would be just like a defendant in trial.

 

[Empennage]

Yeah, right! The arbitrator would tell you what you would get. You need to review what has recently happened in the "real world."


OYS

Please familiarize yourself with what the arbitrators actually determine. Please review the rewards you are talking about.

This poster may or may not be right. However your lack of knowledge in the matter makes your post factually incorrect.

 

[freightdogfred]

Try using your pre-contract, pre-acquisition-announcement numbers. You are being completely disingenuous by quoting pay that was negotiated with Air Tran management, once they knew they wouldn't be in the hole for it anymore.

Talk about forked tongues.

The fact the announcement had been made is the only reason these numbers were not higher. Most of the group had the fight taken out of them with the prospect of higher pay with the merger. And the lion's share of the raises went to the FO side, not the captain's. With no announcement things would have been a lil different methinks, but whatever.