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It's all the pilots fault.....

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FAcFriend said:
And depending where you live, on $37000 you may need food stamps.

yes, grump but the lovely thing about NJA is that you can move to an area that offers better cost of living. Most people are tied to an area based on their job - you are not.


Yeah!

And the POSTA offered some really affordable places to live.

Dope.
 
Lord Wakefield said:
And the POSTA offered some really affordable places to live.


Especially given that if we had two pay scales, and five to ten years later we all had to move to one of the five Shangri La's!
 
Famguy said :

Can you guys at least be consistent in your arguments? Is everything bad as the above post claims or just the pay as the two below claim? Was the old union terrible and ineffective, or did they deliver on everything but pay?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogprint
Our union has delivered on most things, just not pay. The other frax best us only on pay, and it's just a couple of grand more a year.
You took this out of context. It was a comparison of non-union/union.
It was meant to reflect our current MEC.
 
FAcFriend said:
yes, grump but the lovely thing about NJA is that you can move to an area that offers better cost of living. Most people are tied to an area based on their job - you are not.

You must not be divorced with kids. Some of us do not have that option. I wouldn't leave my kids for any amount of money. So...I am stuck at this place because I am not exactly in aviation job central. Not everyone has the luxuries you seem to think we should ALL have.

Think outside the box for a minute. Some people are tied to an area based on their family.
 
FacFriend said:
yes, grump but the lovely thing about NJA is that you can move to an area that offers better cost of living. Most people are tied to an area based on their job - you are not.
Tell me, how much do you suppose it would cost to move a 2 bedroom houseful of stuff and a few vehicles from, say, SFO to somewhere with a "better cost of living," say, STL (the only "affordable" gateway)? How about moving all my friends and family as well? Wanna pay for my move? :rolleyes:

Yes we can move, but we should be paid enough so that we don't have to.
 
Yeah my wife would love it if I moved to Columbus to live high on the hog for 37k.

Oh wait she can't move. But i can. Ooooh that's going to work out great.
 
blame the top guys at your company for your low pay who paid for their jobs that didnt pay then or now. They are the ones that let management know that pilots are so stupid that they will pay thousands of dollars to come work for a low paying job just cause they love to fly so much. I only feel sorry for the bottom half of your senority list.... the rest can go cry with the commair guys.
 
Dixon Cider said:
You must not be divorced with kids. Some of us do not have that option. I wouldn't leave my kids for any amount of money. So...I am stuck at this place because I am not exactly in aviation job central. Not everyone has the luxuries you seem to think we should ALL have.

Think outside the box for a minute. Some people are tied to an area based on their family.

Dixon, this is a good point. Some are tied to areas because of medical care, others are tied to areas because of elderly parents etc. How much responsiblity does any corporation have to take care of all the individual needs of employees.

Obviously the benefit to live anywhere means nothing to you- no value added.
To someone else family medical insurance means nothing- no value added.

Are we to be all things to all people?
 
FacFriend opined:

How much responsiblity does any corporation have to take care of all the individual needs of employees.

In todays competitive market, they better do a darn well job of taking care of employees. There is no loyalty like there was twenty or thirty years ago. Also Gov regs are taking care of some things on the job (Family medical leave act, ect..).

Are we to be all things to all people?

If they plan on attracting as many pilots as they say, they are going to have to try.
 
nerdpilot said:
blame the top guys at your company for your low pay who paid for their jobs that didnt pay then or now. They are the ones that let management know that pilots are so stupid that they will pay thousands of dollars to come work for a low paying job just cause they love to fly so much. I only feel sorry for the bottom half of your senority list.... the rest can go cry with the commair guys.

Where did this brainiac zoom in from?:confused: Don't you have some soft field landings to practice somewhere?:eek:
 
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Diesel said:
Yeah my wife would love it if I moved to Columbus to live high on the hog for 37k.

Oh wait she can't move. But i can. Ooooh that's going to work out great.


You are whipped you will move wherever your wife tells you to. She calls all the shots
 
Ultra Grump said:
So you're saying that $37,000 per year for a turbojet captain flying the richest folks in the world is something we should be proud of, because 98% are receiving captain's pay? I made more as a regional FO. And depending where you live, on $37000 you may need food stamps.

Oh really? You made more as a regional FO? So where, pray tell, was that? Here's a sampling of 10 year FO rates at some of the regionals (courtesy of airlinepilotpay.com):




Chautauqua..........​
$30,600
American Eagle....$34,200
Comair.................$40,500
Pinnacle...............$32,400
ASA.....................$35,100

I also noticed you want to showcase the first year Captain rate for NetJets and compare it against a topped out FO at a regional, but you neglect to say how many pilots at NJA actually fall into that category (and are actually acting as a PIC)?

While I respect the pilots efforts to secure better pay through negotiations, your cause would be better served if you could at least discuss the FACTS on a level playing field instead of constantly presenting skewed data. This just serves to undermine your arguments when others post the underlying details.....which we all know will always happen.
 
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Hogprint said:
You took this out of context. It was a comparison of non-union/union.
It was meant to reflect our current MEC.

Hogprint - that may be so, but the point is still valid.

I constantly see pilots running down the company and the former MEC and saying how bad everything was under the old regime, and then in another thread they defend their status by stating that they have superior work rules, schedules, with only marginally lower pay than their non-union counterparts.

Bottom line is that you cant cry pauper out of one side of your mouth and then boast about all the non-monetary advantages out of the other side.....its disingenuous and hypocritical.
 
FamilyGuy said:
Oh really? You made more as a regional FO? So where, pray tell, was that? Here's a sampling of 10 year FO rates at some of the regionals (courtesy of airlinepilotpay.com):

Chautauqua..........$30,600
American Eagle....$34,200
Comair.................$40,500
Pinnacle...............$32,400
ASA.....................$35,100
Let's see, smart guy, my W2 from my last full year at a regional (as an FO, and nowhere near year 10) says $38,152. Netjets capt pay year 1 (most of those pesky bypass guys) is $37,560. Unless my math teacher was an idiot, last time I checked $38,152 was greater than $37,560. Do you disagree?
I also noticed you want to showcase the first year Captain rate for NetJets and compare it against a topped out FO at a regional, but you neglect to say how many pilots at NJA actually fall into that category (and are actually acting as a PIC)?
You said:
you've got other pilots on here claiming that 98% of the pilots are receiving captains pay
You're the first person I've seen throw that number out there, but the only reason the number may be that high is because of bypass pay, and several hundred guys recently got on bypass pay, at $37,560 per year. Doesn't matter if they're acting as PIC or not, we are all type-rated and qualified to act as PIC in whichever plane we fly, and our tickets are on the line no matter which seat we're in. And I still don't recall stating anything about being a 10-year, topped-out FO... (hmm, reminds me of something someone said about skewed data and underlying details...)
While I respect the pilots efforts to secure better pay through negotiations, your cause would be better served if you could at least discuss the FACTS on a level playing field instead of constantly presenting skewed data. This just serves to undermine your arguments when others post the underlying details.....which we all know will always happen.
I said that I made more as a regional FO than as a $37,560 per year NetJets captain. That is not skewed data, that is a fact.
 
Ultra Grump said:
Let's see, smart guy, my W2 from my last full year at a regional (as an FO, and nowhere near year 10) says $38,152. Netjets capt pay year 1 (most of those pesky bypass guys) is $37,560. Unless my math teacher was an idiot, last time I checked $38,152 was greater than $37,560. Do you disagree?

You said:
You're the first person I've seen throw that number out there, but the only reason the number may be that high is because of bypass pay, and several hundred guys recently got on bypass pay, at $37,560 per year. Doesn't matter if they're acting as PIC or not, we are all type-rated and qualified to act as PIC in whichever plane we fly, and our tickets are on the line no matter which seat we're in. And I still don't recall stating anything about being a 10-year, topped-out FO... (hmm, reminds me of something someone said about skewed data and underlying details...)

I said that I made more as a regional FO than as a $37,560 per year NetJets captain. That is not skewed data, that is a fact.

So which regional and how many extra days or hours do you do of overtime?
 
FamilyGuy said:
Hogprint - that may be so, but the point is still valid.

I constantly see pilots running down the company and the former MEC and saying how bad everything was under the old regime, and then in another thread they defend their status by stating that they have superior work rules, schedules, with only marginally lower pay than their non-union counterparts.

Bottom line is that you cant cry pauper out of one side of your mouth and then boast about all the non-monetary advantages out of the other side.....its disingenuous and hypocritical.


I just wanted to point out that you were using a quote to bolster your argument out of context. That still stands.

I will stand by any statement that I've made as to comparisons of this MEC v/s the last MEC. They have done more for this pilot group in 9-10 months than the old regime did in three or four years. I think you would have to grudgingly agree?

I respectfully disagree with your last comment. We can surely cry pauper and thank the graces for what we have. That is the whole point of negotiating and working to better our situation.

I don't find that hypocritical at all. Just hard nosed negotiations.
 
FAcFriend said:
ultra

were you paid ot for the months you were overblock
You are not paid annual or monthly salaries. You are paid for flight hours. Those numbers posted for regionals are based on guarantee. They guarantee a minimum amount of work.

So like he said it doesn't matter. You bid lines. some lines have more work than the guarantee... you make more than the guarantee.
 
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