Is US Airways east a bottom feeder?

[B-atch]

.....LONGEVITY and TIME in SERVICE!! That is what I am arguing..

 

[waveflyer]

The east has their longevity - but seniority isn't longevity. The reward for longevity is a bigger payrate. Seniority is how many pilots are below you.

So again- are you saying that a furloughed east pilot should have leapfrogged an AWA pilot who had a job?

 

[B-atch]

..Are you saying that a 20 year pilot should be junior to a 2005 new hire?

 

[St. Nic]

But please answer: should a america west pilot who had a job on the date of the merger be placed below a furloughed east pilot? Is that what you're arguing?

In all fairness, the logical solution is to go by a standard that doesn't float, isn't subjective to what one person thinks is fair and does not change. That best standard is- Date of Hire. So to answer your question, yes.

 

[waveflyer]

If that 20 year pilot was not actually employed by the carrier at the time of the merger absolutely- it's a bit insane to have the expectation that one would- I'd agree it sucks for the 20 year pilot- but its also sucks a lot that the 20 year guy could be on the street after 20 years and not simply move on to greener pastures

 

[waveflyer]

In all fairness, the logical solution is to go by a standard that doesn't float, isn't subjective to what one person thinks is fair and does not change. That best standard is- Date of Hire. So to answer your question, yes.

You can go by DOH all you want- someone not employed shouldn't get anything but recall rights

 

[B-atch]

B- no worries- but I think you're holding on a bit to tight to this legal concept of fairness and confusing it with the fairy tale notion that actual fairness exists in the real world -
Bottom line- no one is confused that the USAIR career has been blotted with extreme unfairness brought on by management taking full advantage of 9/11. It sucks. But one question remains- after the onslaught of 9/11- 1800 east pilots were furloughed- many sold out by their own union in the j4j scam-
That is noted.
But please answer: should a america west pilot who had a job on the date of the merger be placed below a furloughed east pilot? Is that what you're arguing?

Are you, perhaps, insinuating that the NIC award MIGHT be UNFAIR?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

In all fairness, the logical solution is to go by a standard that doesn't float, isn't subjective to what one person thinks is fair and does not change. That best standard is- Date of Hire. So to answer your question, yes.

You would know nothing about fairness. Fairness is whatever goes the easts way.
Where's MCDU today? He working an extra shift at the drive thru to supplement your stellar 190 payrates?
You chose arbitration
You chose the arbitrator
You chose your current situation
Deal with it.
You are nothing more than a job stealer. The misery you find yourself today is because of your actions. Enjoy those payrates.:laugh:

 

[get2flyin]

Wave I respect YOUR opinion. And as such, WE all have ours.. The real facts might NEVER be known. Only the Architects, and perhaps a few hard drives, know the REAL facts about this merger.
One FACT does stand, US Airways HAD and HAS value!! If not, well, Braniff, Eastern, Pan-Am, TWA, etc should I continue. You get the point.

I don't think any intelligent person would try to argue the fact that USAir HAD and HAS value. Aircraft, hubs, gates, routes, employees, loyal frequent fliers, all of these have value...but it was also being dragged down by debt, tremendous overhead, and terrible management that overshadowed the "good" parts of the company.

This is not about choosing SIDES. Its about "Doing what is right".....
It is blatantly obvious that the NIC award was punitive at best!! Perhaps it was done to teach the EAST merger committee a lesson. Point taken. But a fact does stand, one group WAS benefited by the detriment of another. This VIOLATES merger policy, even ALPAs.

Mr. Nicolau also FAILED to acknowledge that the US Airways 1998 pilot contract incorporated a NO-FURLOUGH clause. This was disregarded by management who dramatically DOWNSIZED the airline. 1800+ pilots lost their jobs, when FORCE MAJOUR was declared, due to an unprecedented event, the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001.

OUR flying was out-sourced, multiple markets were abandoned, and the cost structure that had been in place to service a MUCH larger carrier began to implode. BK1 ensued and the rest is history.

Management's PIPE dream had materialized. They were now FREE to impose PUNITIVE contractual demands!! They cut to deep and took more than needed. Even VACATION was decimated for returning furloughees and future new-hires.

Mr Nicolau worked the seniority integration as a generic ,cookie cutter, standard merger . Never did he consider(at least personally) the "Why" US Airways had reached such a dire financial condition. The fact that 1800+ pilots lost their job as a DIRECT result of an UNPRECEDENTED attack on our nation was NEVER considered!! May I remind you that not only the AIRLINE industry, but this nation's ENTIRE economy was shaken to its CORE!! But no, Mr. Nicolau failed to consider this.....And the rest is history....

Have you read Nicolau's award? He took far more into account then you are willing to give him credit for and it was hardly the "cookie cutter" solution that you imply. You are under the mistaken idea he had the obligation to create a remedy based on what AWA "was"at the time of the merger and what USAir "could have" or "should have" been. Quite the contrary, he took a snapshot of what both airlines "actually were" and based his award on those factors. I'm sorry things sucked at USAir but that wasn't Nicalou's doing, nor was it Parker's doing. The fact that reality sucked and now YOU don't like the Award doesn't mean it violated any of the provisions set forth for the creation of the settlement. And now you think "doing what's right" means giving you what you think you are entitled to? Really?

Another thought: You do know that AWA also furloughed as a result of September 11th but had recovered from this terrible event, AND was expanding at a ferocious pace? Enough with the "poor us", September 11th, wave a flag. The fact that USAir was foundering hardly meant the industry was in the same shape. I think it's safe to say the rest of the industry was collectively holding its breath, waiting for the inevitable liquidation of USAir that would have helped the overcapacity that existed. Parker's move was more of a defensive one, keeping SWA from "capturing the flag" in PHL and trying to box AWA into PHX and LAS. Ask you other buddies of UAL, CO, Delta, SWA, etc...to your face they told you how sad it was you were getting hosed, but they were counting on the collapse of USAir to pole-vault them back to the glory days. If they deny it, they're lying to you. NOBODY wanted to see a bunch of pilots have their career go up in smoke, but everybody was looking at the floor waiting for it to happen.

 

[TWA Dude]

....This makes HIS decision a SUBJECTIVE and not OBJECTIVE one... Leaving to much room for prejudice and personal perception..

By gosh, I think you've figured out the system. Bravo!

At the risk of restating the obvious, when you take your case to a judge or arbitrator you risk not getting what you want or feel you deserve or are entitled to. Both sides know this going in so crying "unfair" afterwards is irrelevant.

If your last sentence held any truth, the APPEAL PROCESS would be MOOT!!

Which appeal process?

 

[TWA Dude]

..Are you saying that a 20 year pilot should be junior to a 2005 new hire?

If a 20 year pilot is at the bottom of the seniority list is he junior or senior? Junior is junior, regardless of longevity.

 

[reepicheep]

US Airways was headed for serious trouble even before 911 so to blame all their misfortune on that event is disingenuous. The failed United merger, "No Plan B", declining industry fundamentals, and an airline that was generally acknowledged to have little future as a stand-alone carrier. You can talk to anyone who was on the MEC at the time - the Wolf/Gangwal "Armageddon" plan was going to be to gut the airline down to PHL and DCA and make it, in Gangwal's words, "the most profitable regional airline in the world." Obviously events intervened and W/G were soon gone and things took another turn but it gives you some idea of what career expectations might have been at the time.

 

[waveflyer]

Are you, perhaps, insinuating that the NIC award MIGHT be UNFAIR?

If I wanted to give the world that kind of control- I'd say that the entire predicament of the very junior east pilot who happens to have 20 years longevity is unfair. There was a LOT of corruption from managements and your union leaders-

The situation certainly sucks-
I'm a junior Swa pilot, hired at the end of a big growth period- I make sure I tell myself everyday that I am experiencing pretty much what those 20 year east FOs did- and I have not "arrived" anywhere- that I need to save and keep working on other areas to make money-

That's one of the keys to happiness with this job- is to realize that our seniority #, for as many problems as it solves for us- does take away our control over our own lives and will make us unhappy if we aren't aware that this is an area that we don't control (insert serenity prayer)- we are along for the RIDE- but guess what? That's life too, we also have a career that can disappear tomorrow with any number of accidents and illnesses- if we are to be happy at retirement- we must accept this fickle nature and do our best to plan for it and NEVER let ourselves be tricked into thinking we are TRAPPED. as soon as I am not happy as a pilot I WILL CHOOSE something different.

So life as a junior FO after 20 years might be "unfair" or that term may just be a bullsh/t concept. A judgement based on our perspective- there is a LOT don't control in life and searching for fairness is a futile thing- the world isn't fair or unfair- it just IS.

---------
And when I look at that particular merger- it's a tough scenario- and I think the Nic award was the best possible outcome considering the way things actually were at the time of the merger. Not as either side hoped they were. The Nic award is as fair as this world gets-

East pilots would be better served taking more responsibility for their situations

 

[B-atch]

US Airways was headed for serious trouble even before 911 so to blame all their misfortune on that event is disingenuous. The failed United merger, "No Plan B", declining industry fundamentals, and an airline that was generally acknowledged to have little future as a stand-alone carrier. You can talk to anyone who was on the MEC at the time - the Wolf/Gangwal "Armageddon" plan was going to be to gut the airline down to PHL and DCA and make it, in Gangwal's words, "the most profitable regional airline in the world." Obviously events intervened and W/G were soon gone and things took another turn but it gives you some idea of what career expectations might have been at the time.

A similar predicament could be compared to Continental Airlines, circa 1988.

 

[waveflyer]

Again- successful, happy people deal in the world as it IS, not in the world they think should be

 

[DustyBottoms]

The anal lysts were lying. Making it look that way so labor can take it in the shorts. And we did. And were going to get it all back!

I gotta admit, that is some funny stuff. I honestly can't tell if you're serious. Either way, the sarcasm is funny, or the thought of a nutcase flying airplanes is funny.

This whole east/west argument is awesome to see the dynamics of human mentality. Love it.

 

[Superbird]

The anal lysts were lying. Making it look that way so labor can take it in the shorts. And we did. And were going to get it all back!

When is this going to happen? Do you have a decade in mind?

 

[Deadalus]

After we get our LOA93 snap backs we will have the last laugh- and it will be even better once the west gets bought by Republic. Have fun with your relative seniority westies! I will be enjoying our attrition and better life than any of you can imagine.
Scope, you are a dweeb

HAHAHHAHHAHA. I'm laughing now. Good luck with that snap back. What are you smoking out east? Staple 85% of the west pilots and a snapback too. Go buy yourself a lottery ticket, you'll have a better chance.

 

[PuffDriver]

You are a talented fiction writer. So now you claim USAir was in a pre-pack CH11? That's news. I'm no expert yet even I know that in a pre-pack the plan of reorganization is negotiated before the company even files. In 2005 USAir had been in CH1 for many months and had NO plan of reorganization nor were there even rumors of one being filed imminently.
So what are you going to make up next?

That's fine, you can deny, deny, deny. You're reaching. USAir had been in BK for many months. Wow, the BK process takes years and USAir came out in months. Yep, no flag there.

Filing BK twice doesn't make a company nonviable. Being in a self-financed BK with no exit plan and all analysts counting the days to CH7 does indeed make a company nonviable. (Oh yeah, all the analysts are liars, all the judges are biased, and it's all ALPA's fault. I keep forgetting.)

Well at least you admitted it. They were a viable company. The day they file for ch 7, they become NOT viable. Counting days, no exit plan, etc--Red Herring.

Even if true, irrelevant.

Not irrelevant at all. Part of the reason that they were and still are viable

Oh, I get it: it was a SECRET pre-pack. Are you sure you won't get in trouble for spilling the beans?

Gimme a break. Nobody knows about mergers before they happen, nobody knew what was happening with USAir and AmWest until it happened.

In the 1st BK, there was never any doubt in my mind that viability was in doubt. DIP financing grew on trees. 2008 was still a few years away.

Lemme put it this way. Everybody except some USAir Easties thought liquidation was imminent in 2005. You state your contrary opinion yet are unable to present any facts or evidence to support that opinion. To support my opinion I state a) there was no exit strategy announced or even envisioned and b) analysts were in agreement and c) Doug Parker stated on camera that he had to rush the deal because USAir wouldn't last much longer.

I'm not an Eastie, and I'm sure liquidation was not imminent in 2005. a) public announcement would have brought A out of the woodwork to try and kill the deal b) Not all analysts were in agreement c) the rush was for DOJ fast approval before anybody could come in and mess it up.

It really doesn't matter.

Alone, perhaps not. But it does point to a larger pathology many Easties seem to suffer from: ignoring reality. Nicolau told the East DOH wasn't going to happen yet y'all were so shocked at the list your CIRP was activated. Then you shopped for and hired a lawyer who told you it was okay to impose a more favorable seniority list as long as you change unions first. And then the DFR trial which we easily won. Y'all believe just because it as overturned on ripeness it's like it never happened. Well, it did happen and that's why the company filed their suit for declaratory judgement. I don't care to guess what will happen with that suit but suffice it to say the company won't touch your wet-dream list unless it know it's legal to do so. In other words, probably never.

Not an Eastie, again. The East did indeed change it's stance after said conversation. Everyone neglects to mention that. The other contributing argument is that the arbitrator is not allowed to punish one side or the other. This is not a trial or baseball arbitration. A fair award is mandatory, and I believe the East has an argument that it is not fair. I honestly think that they were better off staying with ALPA, never voting in the JCBA, and just enjoying their attrition--kind of like they are doing now. A couple of other points: this non-viable company had recalled everyone from the east who wanted to come back PRIOR to the award being handed out by Niccolau. Surely that might have something to say about the viability of the East. Additionally, the financials of the performance, post-merger, of the West and East speak volumes about where the value of this company really exists.

Well let's see. Offhand I'm thinking of Continental, TWA, United, US Airways, Delta, and Northwest. They all lost their pensions in CH11. What "several examples" do you have?

Well, let's see here. I honestly don't know about CAL and TWA. USAirways was voluntary--not forced. The pilots were the only ones at Delta who lost their pensions, and it was voluntary--not forced. NWA kept their pension. What else you got? Doesn't matter, you're wrong. BK is not an automatic termination of pensions. There is a metric which must be met in order to force termination in BK.

Right. The company would've asked the judge to eliminate their pension liability and it would've been gone. That's what happens in BK.

See above =====^

LMFAO. You think that suit is going to regain your pension? Better re-read the complaint.

It's not my pension. My pension was voluntarily terminated as well, but I received very valuable compensation for it. To answer your question, no, I don't think that the pension will be regained, but analysts have been proven wrong time and time again by the USAir pilots. It's a tough bunch.

I don't engage in the "my carrier is better than your carrier" nonsense. I made my comment because nobody in their right mind would quit US Airways for AWA unless they feared it was nonviable. I guess they should've talked to you first and found out how USAir was still in good shape.

Complete, utter, total, 100% BS. You want facts, you say. Here it is:

In 2005 AWA's future was apparently a lot brighter than US Air's. Several Easties quit, yes I said quit US Air to come to AWA. In this business you make your choices and hope for the best. Time will tell if you're decision was as smart as you brag it was.

Don't see any "right mind" comments, no non-viable comments. I DO
see the words

apparently a lot brighter

. Yeah, that's factual People leave companies for different reasons. Any speculation as to why is just that-speculation. The facts are that USAirways has value today from East operations--despite "all of the analysts predicting the demise", East pilots have found a way to unify--right or wrong (unprecedented), the West is arguably dragging down the operation with weak operations in a very low margins. I can see why you would want to cling to the Niccolau award like grim death.

 

[Carl S.]

WOW!!! PuffDriver must get all of his/her facts straight from Thuer himself! Talk about towing the USAPA party line. Keep telling yourself those lies/half truths over and over. Eventually they will sound like the truth, just like OJ thinks he did not kill Nicole because he has said it so many times. Man up and live with the agreements you have made, vote no forever as far as I am concerned, but stop the Hoffa style goon crap from USAPA. You sound like a person trying to say walking away fron your mortgage was the banks fault cause my house is worth less now than five years ago, who signed the papers?