Is US Airways east a bottom feeder?

[B-atch]

I thought the WEST had reached the end of the line. Didn't the US Supreme Court deny YOUR appeal? If you guys had a CLUE, you would support USAPA in securing a better contract for ALL LCC pilots. Up to and including a strike. Then , and only then, could you be free to file DFR #2!! You get it, you must first cross the bridge to get to the other side!!!

But I guess it makes to much sense....
The WEST is totally content with the EAST pilots pathetic BK contract. It brings them pleasure to know that LOA 93 inflicts tremendous damage, not only on the EAST pilot group, but on the entire industry.

The WEST is willing to hold on to the Nic award at ALL cost. Even if it guarantees the infinity of THEIR pathetic contract!! This in itself proves how much of a WINDFALL the Nic award IS.........

 

[TWA Dude]

I thought the WEST had reached the end of the line.

You thought wrong. Don't believe all of Theuer's spin.

The WEST is totally content with the EAST pilots pathetic BK contract.

Hmm, which side was that withdrew from joint contract negotiations in 2007 when the company was profitable? That was the East. So it's the East that's content with a pathetic BK contact. The West couldn't care less.

It brings them pleasure to know that LOA 93 inflicts tremendous damage, not only on the EAST pilot group, but on the entire industry.

It shouldn't, but considering the damage the East has caused the West it's understandable.

The WEST is willing to hold on to the Nic award at ALL cost.

Glad you realize that. Bradford et al no doubt thought we'd roll over and give up.

Even if it guarantees the infinity of THEIR pathetic contract!! This in itself proves how much of a WINDFALL the Nic award IS.........

I know, wanting to actually accept a binding arbitration award makes us the bad guys. Well, we'll just have to find a way to live with ourselves.

 

[TWA Dude]

USAir was a viable company when AWA "bought them".

From M-W.com definition 3 of viable
c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Which definition of viable do you use?


In 2005 US Airways was in its second bankruptcy in three years, with no DIP financing and no exit plan even being discussed. All analysts expected imminent liquidation. Absent the AWA buyout exactly what alternative was there? Be specific. Your opinion isn't sufficient.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Holy cow, man. You put some work into that post. Just looking at all of the different font HTML code.

I'll address some of these, as an outsider:

-Lowest starting pay in the industry. Somehow I doubt it. Ya still have MESA out there and the likes. Starting pay is what it is, at every airline

-First to give back their pensions. Point of clarification--major failure of ALPA here, at the National level. First, the MEC of USAir allowed the giveback without any kind of membership ratification. None, zero, zip. As an airline with a significant elderly population, my guess is that the MEC knew what that vote would be. IMO, the pilots would have fallen on their sword and tubed the whole airline. meanwhile, you had the rest of the industry, including my airline, salivating over the pickings that would be left when USAir went away. Who are the scumbags again who tried to leave a fellow ALPA group out to dry, only the ALPA group did not cooperate and went into survival mode. That's what REALLY happened. Blame the USAir guys all you want, but I think you are pointing the gun in the wrong direction.

-First in the industry to take major concessions. See the previous paragraph. Done in a BS BK designed to be the point of the spear to spread through the industry--which it did. Blaming the pilots for this? Not quite.

-First to charge for beverages. OK. Point taken.

-Last in 190 pay. Couple of points here. First, your right. Second, BK rates, kind of like Delta only a bit more severe. 3rd, they have successfully kept the planes on property. We'll see if the rest of the industry follows suit

-Last in pay/vacation. Yup. BK sucks. Two BKs suck worse, no doubt that USAir played the BK card to a T. Ever went back and checked why?

-Rescued in CH7. Complete BS. USAir was a viable company when AWA "bought them". AWA had the option of watching USAir "liquidate", and snatching up the pieces, yet they didn't? USAir "went" Bk twice in an astoundingly short period of time. There is no doubt in my mind the reason for the second one. It's obvious to anyone with any kind of knowledge about the industry. USAir was down, but far from out. The financials since the merger speak volumes about the "viability" of each side.

-"binding arbitration", choosing arbitration, choosing the arbitrator. Been argued to death here and elsewhere. Choose a side. You'll choose the west, I'll choose neither. I've little doubt in my mind that the west got an extremely favorable ruling. Arbitration rules of engagement were not followed by the arbitrator, again IMO. SO is binding indeed binding? Yes for some, not so much for others. and so it goes.

--CEO in jail. Yep, scumbag. Where did he come from again?

--poor spokesmen. Yup no argument there. Taking your cues about an airline from an anonymous board leads me to question your judgement. West side has just as many, so does Delta, SWA, AA, UAL.

Is the East a drag down on the industry? Currently, I would agree. However, a look over recent history shows the East side as an enviable airline for a fair amount of time, and indeed they have some outstanding qualities in their contract despite it's deficiencies, and they also had one of the best contracts ever pre-911. Shortly after 9/11, the winners and losers were chosen by the powers that be, rather than being fiercely represented as they should have been. You can always turn the tables and look at the West side. What have they EVER done to raise the bar in the industry instead of having NO pension, low pay, poor contracts, and leading the charge to change age 60?

I think that your anger is misplaced. JMO.

Perhaps you need a reading lesson.
Wasn't ALPA made up of us air pilots? Didn't US AIR pilots give up their pensions?
Also, I said brink of chapter 7.
And how is it that 10 of their 190's have already left the property? We'll see if the rest stay
I realize you have a vested interest in that POS airline, I'm just calling a spade a spade. And no, I don't work there, nor could I afford the paycut to work there. The place is a cesspool and need to just go away. Hopefully the West will find a much more desirable dance partner where the pilots aren't out to screw them.

 

[St. Nic]

From M-W.com definition 3 of viable
c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Which definition of viable do you use?


In 2005 US Airways was in its second bankruptcy in three years, with no DIP financing and no exit plan even being discussed. All analysts expected imminent liquidation. Absent the AWA buyout exactly what alternative was there? Be specific. Your opinion isn't sufficient.

The anal lysts were lying. Making it look that way so labor can take it in the shorts. And we did. And were going to get it all back!

 

[becket]

The anal lysts were lying. Making it look that way so labor can take it in the shorts. And we did. And were going to get it all back!

You have never been further away from taking a single item "back". USAPA is a doomed failure. Nothing will get accomplished until they get thrown on the trash heap. It was an experiment...it failed.

 

[say again]

You have never been further away from taking a single item "back". USAPA is a doomed failure. Nothing will get accomplished until they get thrown on the trash heap. It was an experiment...it failed.

It failed miserably!! All they have is their dream world...everything else is gone.

 

[B-atch]

It failed miserably!! All they have is their dream world...everything else is gone.

....Yeah a "dream world" that does not include the pathetic land-grabbing West pilots!!!

 

[TWA Dude]

The anal lysts were lying. Making it look that way so labor can take it in the shorts. And we did. And were going to get it all back!

Phew! And I was worried you didn't have a sense of humor. We'll have a lot of fun flying together someday no matter which of us is in the left seat.

 

[fastback]

They have got a hold of the E190's though and thats pretty huge. No other legacy carrier has done that.

Yeah, they got 'em because their management knew they'd fly 'em for less than a regional.

 

[say again]

....Yeah a "dream world" that does not include the pathetic land-grabbing West pilots!!!

:bawling::bawling::bawling:

Keep on dreaming!!:laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

From M-W.com definition 3 of viable
c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Which definition of viable do you use?


In 2005 US Airways was in its second bankruptcy in three years, with no DIP financing and no exit plan even being discussed. All analysts expected imminent liquidation. Absent the AWA buyout exactly what alternative was there? Be specific. Your opinion isn't sufficient.

Nobody has DIP financing in place when they go BK. Red Herring argument. DIP financing grew on trees in 2005. 2 Bks in 3 years, and you don't think that there was something behind the second? Please. Ch7 is not viable. Ch11, most definitely.

 

[PuffDriver]

Perhaps you need a reading lesson.
Wasn't ALPA made up of us air pilots? Didn't US AIR pilots give up their pensions?
Also, I said brink of chapter 7.
And how is it that 10 of their 190's have already left the property? We'll see if the rest stay
I realize you have a vested interest in that POS airline, I'm just calling a spade a spade. And no, I don't work there, nor could I afford the paycut to work there. The place is a cesspool and need to just go away. Hopefully the West will find a much more desirable dance partner where the pilots aren't out to screw them.

The USAir MEC gave up their pensions in Ch11 without allowing their membership to ratify such an action--probably knowing full well that the membership would vote it down, given their age. Instead of stepping in with guns loaded, ALPA national-along with a few other larger airlines-took your advice and decided that their pensions would be safer without USAir in the picture. No national action. Complete inaction. Of course today we can see the result that some of us could see coming a mile away. 3 of the big 4 lost their pensions as well or had them frozen.

10 planes left the property, after all of the above including the SLI. There was a reason for that as well, not that I would expect you to research why. I mean, how much time could you actually have for research with your spouting here??? I have no interest in that POS airline other than to learn that just because scope thinks an airline needs to go out of business for the good of him, it does not mean that that airlines' pilots feel the same way. I also learn that no airline is infallible, no matter how much of that "cream of the crop" jizz they feed them.

I'll take the airline with international presence, solid hubs at DC and NY, and a lock in CLT over a leisure fare airline with no future and no fight--other than to change the age 60 rule--I notice you neglect to address those little nuggets.

Your spade is not a spade

I'm out.

 

[Guppiedriver]

--other than to change the age 60 rule--I notice you neglect to address those little nuggets.

Your spade is not a spade

I'm out.

The America West pilots changed the age 60 rule. I'm impressed!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The America West pilots changed the age 60 rule. I'm impressed!

Don't confuse him with facts, it gets in the way of his man crush on usapa.:blush:

Your spade is not a spade

Um, yes it is.

I'm out.

Feel free to stop back when you have less time............and facts.:laugh:

 

[TWA Dude]

The USAir MEC gave up their pensions in Ch11 without allowing their membership to ratify such an action--probably knowing full well that the membership would vote it down, given their age.

Do you know why USAir lost its pension? Because that's what happens in bankruptcy -- whether the pilot group approves it or not. I'll say that again: your pension was gone one way or another. In bankruptcy you often only have two choices: give concessions voluntarily and maintain some control over the process or let the courts do it for you. You voted in your representatives and they did they best job they could (or at least thought they could) to protect you. There's little point in voting on some issues. In this case the pilot group would've voted to screw itself.

I'll take the airline with international presence, solid hubs at DC and NY, and a lock in CLT over a leisure fare airline with no future and no fight...

In 2005 AWA's future was apparently a lot brighter than US Air's. Several Easties quit, yes I said quit US Air to come to AWA. In this business you make your choices and hope for the best. Time will tell if you're decision was as smart as you brag it was.

 

[spitfire1500]

Starting Pay $1750.......I made more than that flying a Cessna as a CFI...years ago!! LCC East is definately the Mesa Airbus Division!!

 

[reepicheep]

Anyone who thinks usair has a "solid presence" in NY had better go up there and take a look around. For an airline that "owns the northeast", it's becoming a bit hard to find an Airways jet at EWR/JFK/LGA. CLT - possibly the weakest O & D hub in the country. Not much to crow about. The truth is you had a good second - tier hub at PHL and a strong focus city in DCA, along with a modest international division. You're talking a 120-plane regional airline if you boil it down.

 

[Flying Horses]

Starting Pay $1750.......I made more than that flying a Cessna as a CFI...years ago!! LCC East is definately the Mesa Airbus Division!!

That statement is just plain wrong...

Starting pay in the first year if hired on the E-190, which is where most new hires go, is $41/hr - that's about $3100-$3500/month., depending on hours flown.

Starting pay (first year) is $3000/month flat salary if you start on the B737 or Airbus.

 

[TWA Dude]

Nobody has DIP financing in place when they go BK.

TWA did in 2001. US Airways did once AWA was announced as a buyer. Airlines that can't afford to self-finance need a DIP. US Airways needed one.

Red Herring argument. DIP financing grew on trees in 2005.

Did you intend to contradict yourself? Might wanna re-write that last sentence to something that makes sense.

2 Bks in 3 years, and you don't think that there was something behind the second?

That's it? That's your whole basis for arguing USAir had another plan for viability in 2005? Boy, you sure weren't on any debate club in high school. And yes, I do think there was something behind the second: the terrible financial state of US airways.

Please. Ch7 is not viable. Ch11, most definitely.

You need to take a remedial finance class or something. Claiming an airline in Ch11 automatically means it's viable is nonsensical.

Your revisionist version of the history of US Airways is debunked.