Is US Airways east a bottom feeder?

[say again]

....Yeah a "dream world" that does not include the pathetic land-grabbing West pilots!!!

:bawling::bawling::bawling:

Keep on dreaming!!:laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

From M-W.com definition 3 of viable
c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

Which definition of viable do you use?


In 2005 US Airways was in its second bankruptcy in three years, with no DIP financing and no exit plan even being discussed. All analysts expected imminent liquidation. Absent the AWA buyout exactly what alternative was there? Be specific. Your opinion isn't sufficient.

Nobody has DIP financing in place when they go BK. Red Herring argument. DIP financing grew on trees in 2005. 2 Bks in 3 years, and you don't think that there was something behind the second? Please. Ch7 is not viable. Ch11, most definitely.

 

[PuffDriver]

Perhaps you need a reading lesson.
Wasn't ALPA made up of us air pilots? Didn't US AIR pilots give up their pensions?
Also, I said brink of chapter 7.
And how is it that 10 of their 190's have already left the property? We'll see if the rest stay
I realize you have a vested interest in that POS airline, I'm just calling a spade a spade. And no, I don't work there, nor could I afford the paycut to work there. The place is a cesspool and need to just go away. Hopefully the West will find a much more desirable dance partner where the pilots aren't out to screw them.

The USAir MEC gave up their pensions in Ch11 without allowing their membership to ratify such an action--probably knowing full well that the membership would vote it down, given their age. Instead of stepping in with guns loaded, ALPA national-along with a few other larger airlines-took your advice and decided that their pensions would be safer without USAir in the picture. No national action. Complete inaction. Of course today we can see the result that some of us could see coming a mile away. 3 of the big 4 lost their pensions as well or had them frozen.

10 planes left the property, after all of the above including the SLI. There was a reason for that as well, not that I would expect you to research why. I mean, how much time could you actually have for research with your spouting here??? I have no interest in that POS airline other than to learn that just because scope thinks an airline needs to go out of business for the good of him, it does not mean that that airlines' pilots feel the same way. I also learn that no airline is infallible, no matter how much of that "cream of the crop" jizz they feed them.

I'll take the airline with international presence, solid hubs at DC and NY, and a lock in CLT over a leisure fare airline with no future and no fight--other than to change the age 60 rule--I notice you neglect to address those little nuggets.

Your spade is not a spade

I'm out.

 

[Guppiedriver]

--other than to change the age 60 rule--I notice you neglect to address those little nuggets.

Your spade is not a spade

I'm out.

The America West pilots changed the age 60 rule. I'm impressed!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The America West pilots changed the age 60 rule. I'm impressed!

Don't confuse him with facts, it gets in the way of his man crush on usapa.:blush:

Your spade is not a spade

Um, yes it is.

I'm out.

Feel free to stop back when you have less time............and facts.:laugh:

 

[TWA Dude]

The USAir MEC gave up their pensions in Ch11 without allowing their membership to ratify such an action--probably knowing full well that the membership would vote it down, given their age.

Do you know why USAir lost its pension? Because that's what happens in bankruptcy -- whether the pilot group approves it or not. I'll say that again: your pension was gone one way or another. In bankruptcy you often only have two choices: give concessions voluntarily and maintain some control over the process or let the courts do it for you. You voted in your representatives and they did they best job they could (or at least thought they could) to protect you. There's little point in voting on some issues. In this case the pilot group would've voted to screw itself.

I'll take the airline with international presence, solid hubs at DC and NY, and a lock in CLT over a leisure fare airline with no future and no fight...

In 2005 AWA's future was apparently a lot brighter than US Air's. Several Easties quit, yes I said quit US Air to come to AWA. In this business you make your choices and hope for the best. Time will tell if you're decision was as smart as you brag it was.

 

[spitfire1500]

Starting Pay $1750.......I made more than that flying a Cessna as a CFI...years ago!! LCC East is definately the Mesa Airbus Division!!

 

[reepicheep]

Anyone who thinks usair has a "solid presence" in NY had better go up there and take a look around. For an airline that "owns the northeast", it's becoming a bit hard to find an Airways jet at EWR/JFK/LGA. CLT - possibly the weakest O & D hub in the country. Not much to crow about. The truth is you had a good second - tier hub at PHL and a strong focus city in DCA, along with a modest international division. You're talking a 120-plane regional airline if you boil it down.

 

[Flying Horses]

Starting Pay $1750.......I made more than that flying a Cessna as a CFI...years ago!! LCC East is definately the Mesa Airbus Division!!

That statement is just plain wrong...

Starting pay in the first year if hired on the E-190, which is where most new hires go, is $41/hr - that's about $3100-$3500/month., depending on hours flown.

Starting pay (first year) is $3000/month flat salary if you start on the B737 or Airbus.

 

[TWA Dude]

Nobody has DIP financing in place when they go BK.

TWA did in 2001. US Airways did once AWA was announced as a buyer. Airlines that can't afford to self-finance need a DIP. US Airways needed one.

Red Herring argument. DIP financing grew on trees in 2005.

Did you intend to contradict yourself? Might wanna re-write that last sentence to something that makes sense.

2 Bks in 3 years, and you don't think that there was something behind the second?

That's it? That's your whole basis for arguing USAir had another plan for viability in 2005? Boy, you sure weren't on any debate club in high school. And yes, I do think there was something behind the second: the terrible financial state of US airways.

Please. Ch7 is not viable. Ch11, most definitely.

You need to take a remedial finance class or something. Claiming an airline in Ch11 automatically means it's viable is nonsensical.

Your revisionist version of the history of US Airways is debunked.

 

[Crzipilot]

Anyone who thinks usair has a "solid presence" in NY had better go up there and take a look around. For an airline that "owns the northeast", it's becoming a bit hard to find an Airways jet at EWR/JFK/LGA. CLT - possibly the weakest O & D hub in the country. Not much to crow about. The truth is you had a good second - tier hub at PHL and a strong focus city in DCA, along with a modest international division. You're talking a 120-plane regional airline if you boil it down.

120 planes?!?! isn't that about what AWA has? or had?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

:bawling::bawling::bawling:

Keep on dreaming!!:laugh:

His dream has turned into a nightmare!
Imagine, you're flying for Polar Air Cargo, all around the world, and take a job at a bottom feeder like Airways only to get paid "less than" a Republic pilot. He's too busy-------->:crying:
According to APC starting pay on the 737/airbus is.......Wait for it-----------> Yup, a staggering $25/hr! No wonder, he's been "B-atch'ed.":laugh:

 

[Crzipilot]

Yup, That 25.00/ hr is more like a place holder number. 1st year pay is 3k/month salary. so 36k a year. How many years at republic before you make more than 36?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Yup, That 25.00/ hr is more like a place holder number. 1st year pay is 3k/month salary.

I'm sure you tell all the chicks at the mall that you no longer live with your parents, even though you just moved downstairs.
It is what it is.................and that's a laughable $25/hr.

so 36k a year. How many years at republic before you make more than 36?

You should know sport, your pay/work rules and retirement mirror them more than that of any.....EHEM....."Legacy carrier."
Woops, I was wrong, they're worse than Republic. They're a laughable $99/hr, while Republic = $108/hr. Those are both 16 year captain payrates. :laugh:

 

[psw757]

I'm sure you tell all the chicks at the mall that you no longer live with your parents, even though you just moved downstairs.
It is what it is.................and that's a laughable $25/hr.



You should know sport, your pay/work rules and retirement mirror them more than that of any.....EHEM....."Legacy carrier."
Woops, I was wrong, they're worse than Republic. They're a laughable $99/hr, while Republic = $108/hr. Those are both 16 year captain payrates. :laugh:

If you think Republic is so great you ought to apply. $25/hr at Airways is laughable as well is the $31/hr at CAL and the 33/hr at UAL and the 35/hr at AA for first year. At least at Airways you will start at 41/hr on the 190 and within 6-8 months transition to the 737/A320 make 57/hr on second year. No regional will pay that and it is on par with or slightly better than second year at CAL and UAL and not to far behind anyone else except Delta.

Who really gives a ********************, if you don't like what you see then don't apply!

 

[B-atch]

Scope is pissed because he'll have to retire on the little bus.... No wide body captain for him!!.....And yes Scope, YOU can ONLY imagine.............

 

[waveflyer]

These arguments are so dumb- who sucked worse awa or the east? None of you have mentioned the real play-

The america west ACQUISITION of USAIR was about one thing: Southwest

AWA was getting hurt in phx and las and growing weaker with swa's economy's of scale- if USAIR was allowed to go ch7 southwest was ready to pounce and fill the void- a void that no other airline was in a position to fill as well since most were still reeling from multiple bk scams- if USAir had liquidated it would have meant further attrition to awa who did need to get bigger to compete with the big 3 and the lcc's-

So yes- I believe the west saved the east's arse's- but they did it so they could save their own in the future- who knows where america west would be if they had let southwest get that much stronger?

The massive failure is how deep the east/west divisions run-it's not just Flt ops- in every dept, from dispatch to admin to hr, it's all about "what side are you from"---

From an pilot industry pov- I 10000% agree with the ultimate Swa hater ScopeoutRJs
The east agreed to binding arbitration and undercut the results-
There is absolutely no winners in this scenario and no way any east pilot will ever make up the finances that this has cost them- it's all about ego now and has been for a while now-
Terrible, and I 100% support the AWA pilots

 

[get2flyin]

These arguments are so dumb- who sucked worse awa or the east? None of you have mentioned the real play-

The america west ACQUISITION of USAIR was about one thing: Southwest

AWA was getting hurt in phx and las and growing weaker with swa's economy's of scale- if USAIR was allowed to go ch7 southwest was ready to pounce and fill the void- a void that no other airline was in a position to fill as well since most were still reeling from multiple bk scams- if USAir had liquidated it would have meant further attrition to awa who did need to get bigger to compete with the big 3 and the lcc's-

So yes- I believe the west saved the east's arse's- but they did it so they could save their own in the future- who knows where america west would be if they had let southwest get that much stronger?

The massive failure is how deep the east/west divisions run-it's not just Flt ops- in every dept, from dispatch to admin to hr, it's all about "what side are you from"---

From an pilot industry pov- I 10000% agree with the ultimate Swa hater ScopeoutRJs
The east agreed to binding arbitration and undercut the results-
There is absolutely no winners in this scenario and no way any east pilot will ever make up the finances that this has cost them- it's all about ego now and has been for a while now-
Terrible, and I 100% support the AWA pilots

+1 - Yeah! What HE said...except maybe the part about Swa "hating".

 

[PuffDriver]

The America West pilots changed the age 60 rule. I'm impressed!

Nope. America Wet pilots were at the forefront to change age 60. They led the charge. That's what was written in the post to which your quote referred.

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't confuse him with facts, it gets in the way of his man crush on usapa.:blush:




Um, yes it is.


Feel free to stop back when you have less time............and facts.:laugh:

Let me ask you a question, do you EVER have anything intelligent to add to ANYTHING?

Do you ever do anything but troll around and look for people to bash?

Regardless of your response, we both know the real answer.

 

[PuffDriver]

TWA did in 2001. US Airways did once AWA was announced as a buyer. Airlines that can't afford to self-finance need a DIP. US Airways needed one.

Ah yes, the scorned TWA. Know a few of you. Prepackaged BK. Now you are shedding light on why USAir went BK the second time.

Did you intend to contradict yourself? Might wanna re-write that last sentence to something that makes sense.

Sure it does if you follow the thread. Trying to act like USAirways was a worthless airline because they went BK twice in 3 years is a red herring argument. They had, and still have some very valuable assets. The second BK was as prepackaged as you can get without coming out and calling the NYT. In the 1st BK, there was never any doubt in my mind that viability was in doubt. DIP financing grew on trees. 2008 was still a few years away.

You need to take a remedial finance class or something. Claiming an airline in Ch11 automatically means it's viable is nonsensical.

Your revisionist version of the history of US Airways is debunked.

Who said anything about claiming viability of an airline in ch11? What I said, and the subsequent quotes address, is that people who assume USAir was going to liquidate are wrong. Ch11 is not Ch7. They are using their false rationale to state that USAir pilots were somehow saved from being on the street by AWA. Not true, not even in the same vicinity of true. You don't agree, don't. It really doesn't matter.

Do you know why USAir lost its pension? Because that's what happens in bankruptcy -- whether the pilot group approves it or not. I'll say that again: your pension was gone one way or another. In bankruptcy you often only have two choices: give concessions voluntarily and maintain some control over the process or let the courts do it for you. You voted in your representatives and they did they best job they could (or at least thought they could) to protect you. There's little point in voting on some issues. In this case the pilot group would've voted to screw itself.

Is this what you are going with? Let me point out two glaring errors in this quote: There are several examples of pensions surviving the BK process. The other is that your suggestion that the USAir pilot group would have been in dire straights had the membership voted against dropping the pension. Pensions don't automatically go away in BK. There is a metric that has to be made for the termination of a pension. In fact, the litigation over the pension termination is not over.

In 2005 AWA's future was apparently a lot brighter than US Air's. Several Easties quit, yes I said quit US Air to come to AWA. In this business you make your choices and hope for the best. Time will tell if you're decision was as smart as you brag it was.

Ah, I stand corrected. AWA was the golden chalice. Glad we got that cleared up. I know several SWA pilots at my carrier. Guess my carrier's status is a lot brighter than SWA because I know some pilots who have quit SWA to come here. Wait a minute, some of my carrier's pilots have quit to go to SWA. Seems as if somebody was trying to promote their knowledge of red herring contradictions and debate classes........................

 

[get2flyin]

Nope. America Wet pilots were at the forefront to change age 60. They led the charge. That's what was written in the post to which your quote referred.

Wrong. There may have been a *few* America West pilots who were writing their elected representatives as fast as they could churn out letters, but in NO WAY were the pilots *as a group* in support of the change. Where do you come up with this stuff, Puffy? What is your source?

 

[reepicheep]

I think this merger was driven by one thing - the rich getting richer. The long term viability of the resulting airline and the welfare of the employees were not considerations. (Well, are they ever?) The truth is you could not have found a more ill-suited merger partner for either carrier.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope is pissed because he'll have to retire on the little bus.... No wide body captain for him!!.....And yes Scope, YOU can ONLY imagine.............

You know nothing about what I fly or where I'll retire, many many years from now.
I do, however, have your number B-atch. And that is some poor sap who left a good job flying a 747 for Polar to work for a bottom feeder making 1/4 of the pay. But at least you get to fly alongside of those marvelous eastholes on that 190 making less than what a Republic pilot makes.

From an pilot industry pov- I 10000% agree with the ultimate Swa hater ScopeoutRJs
The east agreed to binding arbitration and undercut the results-
There is absolutely no winners in this scenario and no way any east pilot will ever make up the finances that this has cost them- it's all about ego now and has been for a while now-
Terrible, and I 100% support the AWA pilots

I don't hate SWA, just the pompous attitude that comes with it.

 

[B-atch]

These arguments are so dumb- who sucked worse awa or the east? None of you have mentioned the real play-

The america west ACQUISITION of USAIR was about one thing: Southwest

AWA was getting hurt in phx and las and growing weaker with swa's economy's of scale- if USAIR was allowed to go ch7 southwest was ready to pounce and fill the void- a void that no other airline was in a position to fill as well since most were still reeling from multiple bk scams- if USAir had liquidated it would have meant further attrition to awa who did need to get bigger to compete with the big 3 and the lcc's-

So yes- I believe the west saved the east's arse's- but they did it so they could save their own in the future- who knows where america west would be if they had let southwest get that much stronger?

The massive failure is how deep the east/west divisions run-it's not just Flt ops- in every dept, from dispatch to admin to hr, it's all about "what side are you from"---

From an pilot industry pov- I 10000% agree with the ultimate Swa hater ScopeoutRJs
The east agreed to binding arbitration and undercut the results-
There is absolutely no winners in this scenario and no way any east pilot will ever make up the finances that this has cost them- it's all about ego now and has been for a while now-
Terrible, and I 100% support the AWA pilots

Wave I respect YOUR opinion. And as such, WE all have ours.. The real facts might NEVER be known. Only the Architects, and perhaps a few hard drives, know the REAL facts about this merger.
One FACT does stand, US Airways HAD and HAS value!! If not, well, Braniff, Eastern, Pan-Am, TWA, etc should I continue. You get the point.

This is not about choosing SIDES. Its about "Doing what is right".....
It is blatantly obvious that the NIC award was punitive at best!! Perhaps it was done to teach the EAST merger committee a lesson. Point taken. But a fact does stand, one group WAS benefited by the detriment of another. This VIOLATES merger policy, even ALPAs.

Mr. Nicolau also FAILED to acknowledge that the US Airways 1998 pilot contract incorporated a NO-FURLOUGH clause. This was disregarded by management who dramatically DOWNSIZED the airline. 1800+ pilots lost their jobs, when FORCE MAJOUR was declared, due to an unprecedented event, the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001.

OUR flying was out-sourced, multiple markets were abandoned, and the cost structure that had been in place to service a MUCH larger carrier began to implode. BK1 ensued and the rest is history.

Management's PIPE dream had materialized. They were now FREE to impose PUNITIVE contractual demands!! They cut to deep and took more than needed. Even VACATION was decimated for returning furloughees and future new-hires.

Mr Nicolau worked the seniority integration as a generic ,cookie cutter, standard merger . Never did he consider(at least personally) the "Why" US Airways had reached such a dire financial condition. The fact that 1800+ pilots lost their job as a DIRECT result of an UNPRECEDENTED attack on our nation was NEVER considered!! May I remind you that not only the AIRLINE industry, but this nation's ENTIRE economy was shaken to its CORE!! But no, Mr. Nicolau failed to consider this.....And the rest is history....

 

[B-atch]

You know nothing about what I fly or where I'll retire, many many years from now.
I do, however, have your number B-atch. And that is some poor sap who left a good job flying a 747 for Polar to work for a bottom feeder making 1/4 of the pay. But at least you get to fly alongside of those marvelous eastholes on that 190 making less than what a Republic pilot makes.



I don't hate SWA, just the pompous attitude that comes with it.

Scope I can tell YOU are probably SINGLE and NO family...For ONE reason I left POLAR..Best job I've ever had...But seeing my kids GROW-UP via Skype is a price I am not willing to pay..

So here I am, yearning for the day to share a flight-deck with YOU....

 

[TWA Dude]

Ah yes, the scorned TWA. Know a few of you. Prepackaged BK. Now you are shedding light on why USAir went BK the second time.

You are a talented fiction writer. So now you claim USAir was in a pre-pack CH11? That's news. I'm no expert yet even I know that in a pre-pack the plan of reorganization is negotiated before the company even files. In 2005 USAir had been in CH1 for many months and had NO plan of reorganization nor were there even rumors of one being filed imminently.
So what are you going to make up next?

Sure it does if you follow the thread. Trying to act like USAirways was a worthless airline because they went BK twice in 3 years is a red herring argument.

Filing BK twice doesn't make a company nonviable. Being in a self-financed BK with no exit plan and all analysts counting the days to CH7 does indeed make a company nonviable. (Oh yeah, all the analysts are liars, all the judges are biased, and it's all ALPA's fault. I keep forgetting.)

They had, and still have some very valuable assets.

Even if true, irrelevant.

The second BK was as prepackaged as you can get without coming out and calling the NYT.

Oh, I get it: it was a SECRET pre-pack. Are you sure you won't get in trouble for spilling the beans?

In the 1st BK, there was never any doubt in my mind that viability was in doubt. DIP financing grew on trees. 2008 was still a few years away.

I'm not talking about the first BK.

Who said anything about claiming viability of an airline in ch11? What I said, and the subsequent quotes address, is that people who assume USAir was going to liquidate are wrong. Ch11 is not Ch7. They are using their false rationale to state that USAir pilots were somehow saved from being on the street by AWA. Not true, not even in the same vicinity of true. You don't agree, don't.

Lemme put it this way. Everybody except some USAir Easties thought liquidation was imminent in 2005. You state your contrary opinion yet are unable to present any facts or evidence to support that opinion. To support my opinion I state a) there was no exit strategy announced or even envisioned and b) analysts were in agreement and c) Doug Parker stated on camera that he had to rush the deal because USAir wouldn't last much longer.

It really doesn't matter.

Alone, perhaps not. But it does point to a larger pathology many Easties seem to suffer from: ignoring reality. Nicolau told the East DOH wasn't going to happen yet y'all were so shocked at the list your CIRP was activated. Then you shopped for and hired a lawyer who told you it was okay to impose a more favorable seniority list as long as you change unions first. And then the DFR trial which we easily won. Y'all believe just because it as overturned on ripeness it's like it never happened. Well, it did happen and that's why the company filed their suit for declaratory judgement. I don't care to guess what will happen with that suit but suffice it to say the company won't touch your wet-dream list unless it know it's legal to do so. In other words, probably never.

Is this what you are going with? Let me point out two glaring errors in this quote: There are several examples of pensions surviving the BK process.

Well let's see. Offhand I'm thinking of Continental, TWA, United, US Airways, Delta, and Northwest. They all lost their pensions in CH11. What "several examples" do you have?

The other is that your suggestion that the USAir pilot group would have been in dire straights had the membership voted against dropping the pension. Pensions don't automatically go away in BK. There is a metric that has to be made for the termination of a pension.

Right. The company would've asked the judge to eliminate their pension liability and it would've been gone. That's what happens in BK.

In fact, the litigation over the pension termination is not over.

LMFAO. You think that suit is going to regain your pension? Better re-read the complaint.

Ah, I stand corrected. AWA was the golden chalice. Glad we got that cleared up.

I don't engage in the "my carrier is better than your carrier" nonsense. I made my comment because nobody in their right mind would quit US Airways for AWA unless they feared it was nonviable. I guess they should've talked to you first and found out how USAir was still in good shape.

Before you respond to me again please find some facts to back up your opinion. Thank you.

 

[TWA Dude]

But no, Mr. Nicolau failed to consider this.....And the rest is history....

His job was to render a decision and he was free to consider whatever the heck he wanted. That's the risk of binding arbitration and everybody knows it. People with integrity live with their decisions even when they don't work out as hoped.

 

[B-atch]

His job was to render a decision and he was free to consider whatever the heck he wanted. That's the risk of binding arbitration and everybody knows it. People with integrity live with their decisions even when they don't work out as hoped.

....This makes HIS decision a SUBJECTIVE and not OBJECTIVE one... Leaving to much room for prejudice and personal perception..

If your last sentence held any truth, the APPEAL PROCESS would be MOOT!!

 

[waveflyer]

B- no worries- but I think you're holding on a bit to tight to this legal concept of fairness and confusing it with the fairy tale notion that actual fairness exists in the real world -
Bottom line- no one is confused that the USAIR career has been blotted with extreme unfairness brought on by management taking full advantage of 9/11. It sucks. But one question remains- after the onslaught of 9/11- 1800 east pilots were furloughed- many sold out by their own union in the j4j scam-
That is noted.
But please answer: should a america west pilot who had a job on the date of the merger be placed below a furloughed east pilot? Is that what you're arguing?