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Is turboprop PIC 121 time still so valuable?

saviboy

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With most regionals equipped with Jets, is turboprop time (even if 121 PIC) still competitive?

These are the requirements for a FO position in a company flying A320 ( the airplanes are blue for those who did not guess):
  • 1500 hours total time in airplanes
• 1000 hours turbine in airplanes
• 1000 hours Pilot in Command Time*
• 1000 hours in airplanes at or above 20,000 pounds (maximum takeoff weight) or 1000 hours in large turbojet airplanes (12,500 lbs or above)

This company does not require turbine PIC, just 1000 turbine and 1000 PIC time.
I am getting SIC turboprop under 20000 lbs in a 121 company. The upgrade is "usually" pretty fast (within a year). A couple of years ago, when most regionals were equipped with turboprops, I would not have asked the question, but nowadays, I would like to know what kind of profiles recruiters are more interested in.
 

Saabslime

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All my PIC time that was worth counting was in a turboprop over 20,000 lbs. Didn't hurt me any.
 

stall022

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saviboy said:
With most regionals equipped with Jets, is turboprop time (even if 121 PIC) still competitive?

These are the requirements for a FO position in a company flying A320 ( the airplanes are blue for those who did not guess):
  • 1500 hours total time in airplanes
• 1000 hours turbine in airplanes
• 1000 hours Pilot in Command Time*
• 1000 hours in airplanes at or above 20,000 pounds (maximum takeoff weight) or 1000 hours in large turbojet airplanes (12,500 lbs or above)

This company does not require turbine PIC, just 1000 turbine and 1000 PIC time.
I am getting SIC turboprop under 20000 lbs in a 121 company. The upgrade is "usually" pretty fast (within a year). A couple of years ago, when most regionals were equipped with turboprops, I would not have asked the question, but nowadays, I would like to know what kind of profiles recruiters are more interested in.




competitive minimums have always been more of a base line then published hiring minimums... now days with all the furloughed 121 guys aswell as the lack of hiring for the past few years they probably aren't to worry about not finding anyone without atleast a few thousand hours of PIC time.
 

saviboy

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Saabslime said:
All my PIC time that was worth counting was in a turboprop over 20,000 lbs. Didn't hurt me any.

Thanks for the reply. I am getting time in a turboprop under 20000lbs. Would that make a big difference?

competitive minimums have always been more of a base line then published hiring minimums... now days with all the furloughed 121 guys aswell as the lack of hiring for the past few years they probably aren't to worry about not finding anyone without atleast a few thousand hours of PIC time.

That is true. I know I am not competitive now. I would need to get info on what kind of carreer move I should make, what kind of flight time I should get in order to be competitive in the near future. in other words, get 121 turboprop PIC under 20000 lbs or go on asap with a regional flying jets and hope for quick upgrade?
 
R

RJDC

That is blatant discrimination against small turboprop pilots. I would think about filing a lawsuit against jetblue. Maybe then they would be forced by the courts to accept your flight time.
 

NEDude

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While PIC time in a turboprop isn't quite as versatile as PIC in a jet or large turboprop, there is still value to it.

I posted this in another thread about my current regional which flies only BE-1900s (under 20,000lbs). In the past year we have lost 3 to AirTran, 3 to Continental, 1 to Southwest, 1 to UPS, and 1 to Atlas. Granted 5 of the 9 were minorites or female, but there are 4 white males in that group as well.

So if your choice is PIC turboprop or SIC jet, I'd get at least 1500-2000 hours of PIC in the turboprop before I'd look towards an SIC job in a jet. Also don't pass up opportunities like being a check airman in a turboprop either, even if it means staying beyond 2000 hrs. I know at least Southwest loves that.

That all being said, it is frustrating when you talk to different carriers and they say they want jet time. I have run into that a few times myself.

What is even more frustrating is when you know of several turboprop guys getting hired at a certain company, and one day the CP jumpseats on your flight and you get to talking and he says that his company only hired guys with "significant jet time". Makes you want to drop your professional courtesy and call him a @&%#ing liar.

Done ranting.
 
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avrodriver

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Saabslime said:
All my PIC time that was worth counting was in a turboprop over 20,000 lbs. Didn't hurt me any.

Depends on where you are trying to go...

...by the way if Saabslime went to America West, there are plenty of people that got on in the last year they were hiring with NO Turbine PIC at all, whether it be a turboprop or jet.

Look at the handful of airlines in your dream porfolio and the minimums they require. If you or the time you are building meets them, then you have a shot...you just better be ready to back it up with a couple of nice internal reccomendations.

Also how long are you willing to ride it out at the company you're at now. Are you happy, can you tolorate it for the next 3-4 years? Hitting the magic 1,000PIC in anything isn't gonna get the phone ringing. Some are able to ride the 1900 right into thier dream company (probably happened more so in the past than it does now)...but for others they find themselves applying to other regionals/fractionals after 4 years.

If upgrade is superfast, if I were you I'd stay put,get the 1,000pic... take a look at what all the majors/regionals are doing. And then make a decision from there.

Right now pickins are slim...Majors & regionals.

Late.
 
R

RJDC

NEDude said:
While PIC time in a turboprop isn't quite as versatile as PIC in a jet or large turboprop, there is still value to it.

I posted this in another thread about my current regional which flies only BE-1900s (under 20,000lbs). In the past year we have lost 3 to AirTran, 3 to Continental, 1 to Southwest, 1 to UPS, and 1 to Atlas. Granted 5 of the 9 were minorites or female, but there are 4 white males in that group as well.

So if your choice is PIC turboprop or SIC jet, I'd get at least 1500-2000 hours of PIC in the turboprop before I'd look towards an SIC job in a jet. Also don't pass up opportunities like being a check airman in a turboprop either, even if it means staying beyond 2000 hrs. I know at least Southwest loves that.

That all being said, it is frustrating when you talk to different carriers and they say they want jet time. I have run into that a few times myself.

What is even more frustrating is when you know of several turboprop guys getting hired at a certain company, and one day the CP jumpseats on your flight and you get to talking and he says that his company only hired guys with "significant jet time". Makes you want to drop your professional courtesy and call him a @&%#ing liar.

Done ranting.




Let me guess that one of those companies that hired the minority was UPS. They are amongst the most blatant pro minority companies out there ( I know, they won't hire my white a$$). The EEOC needs to file suit against them for reverse discrimination.
 

LowlyPropCapt

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I am 1/32nd Cherokee Indian... I mean oppressed native American. Think I have a shot at UPS?
 

Paul R. Smith

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Man,

Of course PIC turbo-prop is worth somin. Most of the guys doing the interview are probably ex-t-prop if they are not cool military fighter dudes:D . It is in fact turbine PIC right not shiny jet Pic that they are looking for. Good luck my man, be proud of your propellers, don't hide them in a bushel. Be confident yet humble and be positive and good luck at the interview.
 

freightdogfred

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Machdog1 said:
What about 135 Turbine PIC??
IN aircraft over 20000lbs


This too, is looked at, especially if the company operates Turboprops over 20,000 lbs. :) :) ;)
 

PAPA FOX!

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I think I'd value 2000 PIC in a 1900 MORE that in an RJ if I were the one making the hiring decisions. Think about it. It is harder to fly a TP or arguably even some piston twins than an RJ. In the 1900 you are often times slugging it out through the worst of the WX sometimes without an AP while truly having the mindset of PIC by thinking what your best "outs" are when picking up ice for example. In an RJ you are cruising at ease on top in bright sunshine with George doing the work while not having to worrying about picking up frozen stuff not to mention all the latest bells and whistles like EGPWS, WS alert system and others usually not found in a small TP. Heck, after all, if Richard Collins from Sporty's were 30 yrs younger I'd hire and trust him having mostly flown a C-210 with his thoughtful approach to all aspects of risk management, his tremendous insight, wisdom and knowledge and real world experience of weather and his deep grasp and understanding of ACTING as PIC. I'll bet my bottom dollar that all the other aspects such as CRM and systems knowledge would fall into place nicely for him as well.

If you are going to take away one sentence from my post THIS IS IT! It is the decision making, judgement, depth of experience and mindset of being PIC that should be the determining factor in entrusting a new hire to be a safe and easily trainable pilot regardless of whether a fan or a prop is in front of the engine(s)! Reference the recent SWA depressurazation thread to see what I mean!


Adios Amigos
 
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Saabslime

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I think bottom line is that turbine time is turbine time. After all, a turboprop IS a jet engine. It just has a small inferiority complex. The carriers that get all hung up on the over/under 20,000 are few and far between from my experience.
 

freighthumper

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RJDC said:
Let me guess that one of those companies that hired the minority was UPS. They are amongst the most blatant pro minority companies out there ( I know, they won't hire my white a$$). The EEOC needs to file suit against them for reverse discrimination.

nope..it was a woman
 

Captain Overs

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PAPA FOX! said:
I think I'd value 2000 PIC in a 1900 MORE that in an RJ if I were the one making the hiring decisions. Think about it. It is harder to fly a TP or arguably even some piston twins than an RJ. In the 1900 you are often times slugging it out through the worst of the WX sometimes without an AP while truly having the mindset of PIC by thinking what your best "outs" are when picking up ice for example. In an RJ you are cruising at ease on top in bright sunshine with George doing the work while not having to worrying about picking up frozen stuff not to mention all the latest bells and whistles like EGPWS, WS alert system and others usually not found in a small TP. Heck, after all, if Richard Collins from Sporty's were 30 yrs younger I'd hire and trust him having mostly flown a C-210 with his thoughtful approach to all aspects of risk management, his tremendous insight, wisdom and knowledge and real world experience of weather and his deep grasp and understanding of ACTING as PIC. I'll bet my bottom dollar that all the other aspects such as CRM and systems knowledge would fall into place nicely for him as well.

If you are going to take away one sentence from my post THIS IS IT! It is the decision making, judgement, depth of experience and mindset of being PIC that should be the determining factor in entrusting a new hire to be a safe and easily trainable pilot regardless of whether a fan or a prop is in front of the engine(s)! Reference the recent SWA depressurazation thread to see what I mean!


Adios Amigos

What a load of crap!! I'm tired of hearing you TP guys try and justify flying the 1900 by slamming the RJ. The RJ must not be that bad because it seems many of those guys are interviewing at Southwest everyday. As far as harder to fly a TP, it depends. You have more levers to throw, but when I train guys in the Jet who come from at TP they are way behind at first. They can't get it slowed down. You knock how technical the RJ is? That's a plus to a recruiter. They know that you can handle a complex airplane, and I don't mean complex in the FAR sense of the word. Also, RJ guys do a lot more hand flying that you think.

Bottom line is try and make yourself as competitive as possible. They have the 20,000 pound requirement for a reason. Good luck whatever you decide.
 

Green

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It all boils down to recommendations.

I don't think Turboprop time will hold you back at all. Instead of worrying about what you're flying, I would worry about who you're networking with. Good or bad, jobs in this industry (and the world in general) boil down to who you know.

I know several guys who went to fedex with nothing but 1900d time. I have several friends at AWA with zero pic time who all do a good job and are standup people. Obviously, without a few good recomendations jet pic is the time to have. But in this day and age where qualified pilots are a dime a dozen, the best thing you can do to advance your career is to meet the right individuals. Impress them with your character and motivation. I think airlines want to hire people that they would be happy flying a four day with. My .02
 

Thedude

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Captain Overs said:
What a load of crap!! I'm tired of hearing you TP guys try and justify flying the 1900 by slamming the RJ.

Sounds like a guy that must have been born into the right seatt of an RJ or wait maybe PFTed his way into one.
If you would have ever flown TProps for a while you would understand. The biggest problem for Tprop drivers transitiong to jets is groundspeed when you are close to the airport and not being able to slow down like you are accustomed too. Basicaly Tprop drivers have to relearn their bag of tricks and it takes a little while to do it.
As far as the 1900 goes, I rate it pretty easy to fly.
 

say again

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Captain Overs said:
Bottom line is try and make yourself as competitive as possible. They have the 20,000 pound requirement for a reason. Good luck whatever you decide.

Why is that????:confused: I've flown jets over 20000 lbs and a TP at 15000 lbs, and I really couldn't tell the difference, weight wise. The jet was much easier to fly, so I really do not understand why certain companies want only jet PIC time. Flying is the easy part of aviation, it's all the decision making that makes a good pilot, whether it be in a jet or TP!!! :beer:
 

smellthejeta

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say again said:
Why is that????:confused: I've flown jets over 20000 lbs and a TP at 15000 lbs, and I really couldn't tell the difference, weight wise. The jet was much easier to fly, so I really do not understand why certain companies want only jet PIC time. Flying is the easy part of aviation, it's all the decision making that makes a good pilot, whether it be in a jet or TP!!! :beer:

It's 'cause it's an easy way to thin down a stack of resumes.
 
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