Is this schedule crazy?

[SKC]

An emergency is where you are at or over your 10 hour limit, and you still have planes in the air (say, due to ATC holds and reroutes while enroute).

Surely you're not serious. [I am serious and don't call me Shirley. sorry just had to]

An emergency is where you are AT your 10 hr limit? How many dispatch initiated emergencies have you declared when that 10th hour struck? I'm sure your company loves you.

 

[bcp7]

The reg states that a Dispatcher can not be Scheduled over 10 hours. We routinely work 8+8 hour double shifts. The FAA dances around this one and has never ruled that extending beyond 10 hours for a sick call busts the reg.

Where do you work?

I would say your carrier has poor management in the Dispatch area, resulting in insufficient staffing and poor scheduling.

In 9 years as a Part 121 Dispatcher under Domestic or Flag Rules, I have never had to work a shift in longer than ten hours. I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift. It is a question of management and manpower. None of these airlines had more than 10 dispatchers working the desk.

 

[dispatchguy]

Well - I have heard of dispatchers doing doubles like that in an 8+8 fashion.

Work the first 8 hours as a dispatcher cranking releases and working a desk.
Work the 2nd 8 hours as an ATC coordinator (their internal requirements for the position requires the ADX certificate, however, since they arent "exercising their certificate" the el Federale says thats ok.

And this is a union shop that this happens in; happens all the time.

 

[dispatchguy]

I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift.

Nothing I hate more than a quickturn. I know its legal, but I feel as alive as a cadaver that 2nd shift, and my body clock feels like its been hit with a truck. I actually feel just like a warm body on the desk - hopefully is VFR systemwide...

Now with my multiple sclerosis, I wonder how a quick turn would go now; hopefully I wont have to find out...

 

[Starbuck]

Are you working for ASA ? if so no problem most OCS operate on that schedule.

 

[bcp7]

Well - I have heard of dispatchers doing doubles like that in an 8+8 fashion.

Work the first 8 hours as a dispatcher cranking releases and working a desk.
Work the 2nd 8 hours as an ATC coordinator (their internal requirements for the position requires the ADX certificate, however, since they arent "exercising their certificate" the el Federale says thats ok.

And this is a union shop that this happens in; happens all the time.

I know guys at UAL and COA that do this. Most of them on their last day, and going in to days off.

It is different from working consecutive 8 hour shifts as a dispatcher.

I didn't like quick turns either, one was draining and two in a row was outright brutal. I am glad it didn't happen often. That carrier operated with just 5 line dispatchers for 14 years, before they figured out having a vacation/relief dispatcher would be cheaper than paying OT. The downside of course, is the first 5 dispatchers lost 10k or more per year in OT.

 

[alpine1989]

Where do you work?

I would say your carrier has poor management in the Dispatch area, resulting in insufficient staffing and poor scheduling.

In 9 years as a Part 121 Dispatcher under Domestic or Flag Rules, I have never had to work a shift in longer than ten hours. I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift. It is a question of management and manpower. None of these airlines had more than 10 dispatchers working the desk.

I work at a small 121 carrier. There are two Dispatchers on duty working 8 hour shifts. When there is a sick call the overtime list is called. If nobody accepts the OT and JA is not an option, the 8 hour shift extension will be offered to both Dispatchers on duty. If they don't volunatrily accept it, the junior guy will get JA'ed.

We are a union shop. This is not addressed in the CBA. The Dispatchers would rather work a few doubles every year than get into some sort of reserve situation. This is not a regional where the Dispatcher would have cut another 60+ releases on the second shift. In most cases all of the releases can be done in the first 8 hours. You guys are looking at this in the context of somebody getting screwed. Most folks in this office are happy to do the double especially on their Friday.

Our Dispatch ASI is aware of this practice and has no problem with it. Again, the reg says scheduled 10 hours. Nobody is scheduled more than 8 hours.

 

[bcp7]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

 

[alpine1989]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

Are you serious? You want to argue intent???

How is this any different that pilot international duty?

How would you cover a sick call?

The alternative is reserve. People want to work the doubles.

 

[dispatchguy]

I would agree.

The difference between the occasional double and pilot international duty limitations is that those are permitted by 121, and the "routine" of having open shifts which dispatchers are JA'ed for, after working a shift, to me also violates the INTENT of the regulation.

How often do open shifts occur? To me that is the question. My experience was also at a very small (5) shop, and in the year I was there, only occurred once (as recounted above).

If its only (on average) a once annual thing, then I would say that that is ok. However, if it is say a monthly thing, to me that seems like the intent of the reg is being violated, for that would sound like they have insufficient people to cover the flight schedule as currently staffed. Reorganize the workload, since you say that the 2nd shift may not have any actual releasing, just flight following.

Even at my 5 DX shop, we always had at least one overtime ho in the shop who was more than happy to pickup OT.

 

[XPOO]

I used to work for a charter airline. You'd go to bed thinking you worked at 6am, then in the middle of the night they would pick up a charter and ask you to come in at 2am instead. Then, if your 10 hours was up before the night guy was scheduled to come in they would call someone to come cover on their day off. If that didn't work, the night guy got called in early and the morning guy was told to report back in 10 hours to relieve the night guy. Not that this happened all the time. But about once every two weeks and almost every day in March. And there was hardly ever more than one dispatcher present at any one time throughout the day.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I currently show up for my shift at 4 am and get off at 2. On this current schedule I am barely getting 6 hours of sleep a night. By day 4 I'm ready to drop. When you're married, and your wife doesn't get him until 6:30pm...by the time you eat dinner...getting to bed to make 8 hours of sleep is almost impossible. Now I just found out that they want us to start coming in at 3 am!!!! I seriously have no idea how I'm going to do it....I guess sleeping pills and Tim Hortons will become my friend. Can dispatchers call fatigue?

Man I wish I had a 4 to 2 schedule when working 4 day shifts. Most of my work days are 12+ with 14 to 15 hours being quite normal. And that does not include the time spent going to and from work. 6 Hours a night of sleep is about the norm for me while on a 4 day shift.

Of Course I guess as a pilot I don't need any more than that. I just fly the things, not like the Captain needs to be awake and alert or anything.

Bottom line is that we are all in the same boat here. None of us gets any good sleep in this industry except for the CEO's and Crew managment folks.

I can normally tell when my dispatchers are running on no sleep, I start seeing large errors on the releases. Had a situation a couple days ago where the long runway at an airport was closed due to an incident but the numbers sent on the release still had all the performance based on the long runway. Had I not caught it we would have been way overweight and grossly illegal and possibly ended up in the bushes ourselves.

This is not just a dispatch problem, Most of the pilots out there are near zombies by the end of a trip too.

 

[bcp7]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

 

[alpine1989]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

We get several sick calls per week. Sometimes several in one day. A few times 2 for the same shift.

When the OT list is called, NOBODY ANSWERS THE PHONE. I guess at your shop everyone wants to work so they answer the phone at all hours of the night to help the company. They wouldn't want the Company to violate the intent of an FAR.

 

[alpine1989]

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

The CBA doesn't allow it.