Is this schedule crazy?

[bcp7]

Well - I have heard of dispatchers doing doubles like that in an 8+8 fashion.

Work the first 8 hours as a dispatcher cranking releases and working a desk.
Work the 2nd 8 hours as an ATC coordinator (their internal requirements for the position requires the ADX certificate, however, since they arent "exercising their certificate" the el Federale says thats ok.

And this is a union shop that this happens in; happens all the time.

I know guys at UAL and COA that do this. Most of them on their last day, and going in to days off.

It is different from working consecutive 8 hour shifts as a dispatcher.

I didn't like quick turns either, one was draining and two in a row was outright brutal. I am glad it didn't happen often. That carrier operated with just 5 line dispatchers for 14 years, before they figured out having a vacation/relief dispatcher would be cheaper than paying OT. The downside of course, is the first 5 dispatchers lost 10k or more per year in OT.

 

[alpine1989]

Where do you work?

I would say your carrier has poor management in the Dispatch area, resulting in insufficient staffing and poor scheduling.

In 9 years as a Part 121 Dispatcher under Domestic or Flag Rules, I have never had to work a shift in longer than ten hours. I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift. It is a question of management and manpower. None of these airlines had more than 10 dispatchers working the desk.

I work at a small 121 carrier. There are two Dispatchers on duty working 8 hour shifts. When there is a sick call the overtime list is called. If nobody accepts the OT and JA is not an option, the 8 hour shift extension will be offered to both Dispatchers on duty. If they don't volunatrily accept it, the junior guy will get JA'ed.

We are a union shop. This is not addressed in the CBA. The Dispatchers would rather work a few doubles every year than get into some sort of reserve situation. This is not a regional where the Dispatcher would have cut another 60+ releases on the second shift. In most cases all of the releases can be done in the first 8 hours. You guys are looking at this in the context of somebody getting screwed. Most folks in this office are happy to do the double especially on their Friday.

Our Dispatch ASI is aware of this practice and has no problem with it. Again, the reg says scheduled 10 hours. Nobody is scheduled more than 8 hours.

 

[bcp7]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

 

[alpine1989]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

Are you serious? You want to argue intent???

How is this any different that pilot international duty?

How would you cover a sick call?

The alternative is reserve. People want to work the doubles.

 

[dispatchguy]

I would agree.

The difference between the occasional double and pilot international duty limitations is that those are permitted by 121, and the "routine" of having open shifts which dispatchers are JA'ed for, after working a shift, to me also violates the INTENT of the regulation.

How often do open shifts occur? To me that is the question. My experience was also at a very small (5) shop, and in the year I was there, only occurred once (as recounted above).

If its only (on average) a once annual thing, then I would say that that is ok. However, if it is say a monthly thing, to me that seems like the intent of the reg is being violated, for that would sound like they have insufficient people to cover the flight schedule as currently staffed. Reorganize the workload, since you say that the 2nd shift may not have any actual releasing, just flight following.

Even at my 5 DX shop, we always had at least one overtime ho in the shop who was more than happy to pickup OT.

 

[XPOO]

I used to work for a charter airline. You'd go to bed thinking you worked at 6am, then in the middle of the night they would pick up a charter and ask you to come in at 2am instead. Then, if your 10 hours was up before the night guy was scheduled to come in they would call someone to come cover on their day off. If that didn't work, the night guy got called in early and the morning guy was told to report back in 10 hours to relieve the night guy. Not that this happened all the time. But about once every two weeks and almost every day in March. And there was hardly ever more than one dispatcher present at any one time throughout the day.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I currently show up for my shift at 4 am and get off at 2. On this current schedule I am barely getting 6 hours of sleep a night. By day 4 I'm ready to drop. When you're married, and your wife doesn't get him until 6:30pm...by the time you eat dinner...getting to bed to make 8 hours of sleep is almost impossible. Now I just found out that they want us to start coming in at 3 am!!!! I seriously have no idea how I'm going to do it....I guess sleeping pills and Tim Hortons will become my friend. Can dispatchers call fatigue?

Man I wish I had a 4 to 2 schedule when working 4 day shifts. Most of my work days are 12+ with 14 to 15 hours being quite normal. And that does not include the time spent going to and from work. 6 Hours a night of sleep is about the norm for me while on a 4 day shift.

Of Course I guess as a pilot I don't need any more than that. I just fly the things, not like the Captain needs to be awake and alert or anything.

Bottom line is that we are all in the same boat here. None of us gets any good sleep in this industry except for the CEO's and Crew managment folks.

I can normally tell when my dispatchers are running on no sleep, I start seeing large errors on the releases. Had a situation a couple days ago where the long runway at an airport was closed due to an incident but the numbers sent on the release still had all the performance based on the long runway. Had I not caught it we would have been way overweight and grossly illegal and possibly ended up in the bushes ourselves.

This is not just a dispatch problem, Most of the pilots out there are near zombies by the end of a trip too.

 

[bcp7]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

 

[alpine1989]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

We get several sick calls per week. Sometimes several in one day. A few times 2 for the same shift.

When the OT list is called, NOBODY ANSWERS THE PHONE. I guess at your shop everyone wants to work so they answer the phone at all hours of the night to help the company. They wouldn't want the Company to violate the intent of an FAR.

 

[alpine1989]

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

The CBA doesn't allow it.

 

[alpine1989]

Here's the problem...

All of your proposed solutions hurt the Dispatch group. They want to work the doubles.

1) Put people on reserve. Tell them they have to answer the phone on a two hour call out. The union would probably agree to something stupid like this for comp days or the like.

2) Allow management to cover open shifts. This takes away gravy overtime. It ain't gonna happen.

3) Combine the work loads and go with one Dispatcher on duty. This sets a precedent and allows the Company to avoid overtime all together. Not to mention you can't take a good dump with only one person on duty.

I have never been fatigued and unable to execute my duties as a Dispatcher.

Our Dispatch ASI has no problem with double shifts.

You can do it your way and we'll do it our way.

 

[bcp7]

We get several sick calls per week. Sometimes several in one day. A few times 2 for the same shift.

When the OT list is called, NOBODY ANSWERS THE PHONE. I guess at your shop everyone wants to work so they answer the phone at all hours of the night to help the company. They wouldn't want the Company to violate the intent of an FAR.

It's not so much about the company violating the intent of an FAR, but teamwork among a small group of people to ensure everyone gets the time off they are entitled to. When there are only 5 guys working the desk, you have to have each other's back.

 

[dispatchguy]

Not to mention you can't take a good dump with only one person on duty.

How long do u need, an hour?

I've worked single-dispatcher shops for several years, and in that time I've taken plenty of dumps No, not the relaxing do-the-New-York-Times-Sunday-crossword on the throne dump, but I was able to accomplish what I set out to do.

I ask Sked or MX to watch my phones, make sure I dont have something extremely pressing (airplanes in a hold come to mind), and head out; I always tried to be off the desk no more than 5-7 minutes, and that includes the paperwork!

 

[bcp7]

Here's the problem...

All of your proposed solutions hurt the Dispatch group. They want to work the doubles.

1) Put people on reserve. Tell them they have to answer the phone on a two hour call out. The union would probably agree to something stupid like this for comp days or the like.

2) Allow management to cover open shifts. This takes away gravy overtime. It ain't gonna happen.

3) Combine the work loads and go with one Dispatcher on duty. This sets a precedent and allows the Company to avoid overtime all together. Not to mention you can't take a good dump with only one person on duty.

I have never been fatigued and unable to execute my duties as a Dispatcher.

Our Dispatch ASI has no problem with double shifts.

You can do it your way and we'll do it our way.

If you guys can live with it, that's fine. Personally, I don't agree with it, but I am not your Dispatch ASI.

On the other hand, you gotta love the union mentality. The contract entitles me to sick days, so I am going to take them, and screw somebody else. I'll only work overtime if it is convenient for me, screw somebody else. I don't have to accept overtime unless I'm the junior man already on shift, screw somebody else.

 

[alpine1989]

If you guys can live with it, that's fine. Personally, I don't agree with it, but I am not your Dispatch ASI.

On the other hand, you gotta love the union mentality. The contract entitles me to sick days, so I am going to take them, and screw somebody else. I'll only work overtime if it is convenient for me, screw somebody else. I don't have to accept overtime unless I'm the junior man already on shift, screw somebody else.

You are looking at this from the context of your shop with the perception that someone is getting screwed. Nobody is getting screwed here. We want to do it. Somebody is working a double shift 0600-2200 lcl right now. He was not junior assigned. The other guy on duty also wanted the double.

Where do you work bcp? You can PM me.

 

[XPOO]

Hey, that old place I worked at had 4 Full-Time Dispatchers. Three other people in the company were actually able to dispatch legally, but one was the President, one was the Director of Security and the other was the Director of Flight Ops. Getting any of those three to work a shift or cover was like wiping your butt with only one square of one-ply toilet tissue.

 

[hoover]

Surely you're not serious. [I am serious and don't call me Shirley. sorry just had to]

An emergency is where you are AT your 10 hr limit? How many dispatch initiated emergencies have you declared when that 10th hour struck? I'm sure your company loves you.

I think I mis-spoke myself. My point was that the only time you can violate the regulations is in the case of an emergency, and then only to the extent required to meet that emergency.

I do not consider poor planning on the part of dispatch management to be an emergency. If the office is so short-staffed that there is no one to properly relieve a dispatcher at the end of their scheduled shift, then that's when flights stop getting released. As a dispatcher, I will stay on duty until every flight that is currently airborne lands safely, but I believe that a dispatcher releasing a flight with the full knowledge that he will be required to exceed his maximum duty time in order for that flight to operate normally is a violation of the FARs.

It's one thing to stick around past 10 hours to ensure the safety of the flights already airborne. It's quite another to continue releasing flights when you know beforehand that duty times are going to be exceeded. I view it no differently than the crew that is required to do a look back and find an appropriate rest period in the past 24 hours. I see no reason why dispatcher duty and rest regulations should be interpreted any differently.

 

[dispatchguy]

Isnt there a quotation somewhere that states "Piss poor planning on your part doesnt constitute an emergency on my part"?

Like in my situation on page 1, the shift was scheduled covered, however, due to illness, the PM dispatcher was unable to come in, and there were no other dispatchers available; unplanned sitution, no other coverage, do the double. HOWEVER, had that shift, since the beginning of the schedule for that month, always had been open for whatever reason, then, no, I wouldnt have picked it up, and nothing wouldve operated after my original schedule shift end time. Follow the flights that are airborne, release NOTHING after my end time, and tell the SOC management to start positioning crews for tomorrow. I will bail out a last second sick call, I will NOT bail out piss poor planning on managements part. It is THEIR job to insure proper staffing, and had that PM shift had been open on the day I did the double, then it was managements job to junior or ask for OT well before that start time so I wouldve had a relief dispatcher after I had given my pound of flesh for the day.

However, to wait and tell the AM dispatcher to do a double for a long-time known open shift after he has done his time, is not fair, is not within the spirit and intent of the 10hr max rule. I think that if the FAA general counsel was asked for an interpretation, I think that they would find it in violation of the regs.

 

[hoover]

When a crew member reaches the limit of the Part 121 duty regulations, he stops operating regardless of the reason. He does not operate outside the regulations, even if he wants too. Why are/should dispatchers be any different? Duty time regulations have been around for decades, yet management always acts surprised when a shift cannot be covered due to a lack of staffing. That's MY certificate; MY means of earning a living. I'm not going to jeopardize it so management can save a few bucks on staffing. Cancel the damn flight!

 

[wms]

10 hours on 14 hours off. Flip it around to 14 on and 10 off and it's still a better schedule than a lot of regional pilots' schedules. When we complain we're told getting enough rest on our off time is our responsibility.