Is this schedule crazy?

[bgaviator]

I currently show up for my shift at 4 am and get off at 2. On this current schedule I am barely getting 6 hours of sleep a night. By day 4 I'm ready to drop. When you're married, and your wife doesn't get him until 6:30pm...by the time you eat dinner...getting to bed to make 8 hours of sleep is almost impossible. Now I just found out that they want us to start coming in at 3 am!!!! I seriously have no idea how I'm going to do it....I guess sleeping pills and Tim Hortons will become my friend. Can dispatchers call fatigue?

 

[propsarebest]

Yes and no...

You get more than 2 days off, correct?

 

[onewithwings]

Can dispatchers call fatigue?

Unless it's addressed in your collective bargaining agreement, it's highly unlikely!

(BTW welcome to the dispatch world, consider yourself lucky you aren't required to work a graveyard shift! )

Hint:Wear earplugs, they work wonders!

 

[bgaviator]

yes, we work a 4 on, 3 off. I just don't see how anyone in their right mind can be expected to try to be to bed by 8 pm just to get 6 hours of sleep. The real pisser is that we have enough dispatchers to have 3 shifts, 24 hour coverage....but it would leave us with no vacation relief except for the managers....and of course they don't want to have to work extra to cover people's vacations....so they just keep trying to stretch 2 shifts into covering as much of a 24 hour period as they can.

 

[dispatchguy]

24hr coverage - if youre at a regional, welcome to the world of inadequate staffing. Airlines who staff to an 8hr shift, at least what I hear about on WDFF, are becoming a rarity.

Once, at a regional a while back, we were poorly staffed with only 5 dispatchers, me and the rest (including the dispatch manager)

I am AM shift, PM calls sick (single manning), I call my SOC director, and he (pilot for us), tells me to start calling around.

Guy 1 - having a party, started drinking already (at 1100am)

Guy 2 - In florida

Guy 3 - In Pennsylvania (were in the midwest)

Guy 4 - The one that called off

I ended up working a 20 hour day! No, I didnt pitch a bitch about a 10hr max violation, for I did see it as an emergency situation, and the shortage was not foreseeable; it wasnt like the PM shift was uncovered and I got juniored for it; for if that had happened, I probably wouldve told them to go pound sand. Thankfully the weather in the entire system was hard VFR, and the airplanes were all cooperating, ATC was playing nice, the crews werent calling in sick (plus, it did make me look like a savior to the front office shmoes)

I did tell our SOC manager that if it had been a typical day, that he wouldve had to have come in and start to help me draw the system down and position the overnites for tomorrow, for I wouldve quickly become fatigued.

The one nice thing about 10 hr shifts, is that it does provide the ability to have a 4-3 schedule, assuming that you have a 2080 hour work year.

Just remember, they can work you 52 or so days straight, and thats completely legal. 4 days off at the beginning of month one, and 4 days off at the end of month two; and as long as they dont schedule you to bust a 10 in 24, and give u 8 hrs of rest between duty periods, thats completely legal. Is that safe (but imagine that overtime

I hate quickturns as well; and yes, I am always shot afterwards.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Welcome to dispatching, buddy.

I bid 4am-2p shifts...but I rarely work at 4a. This week, I've worked a 2am, a two 3am's, and a 4am today. I jump back and forth all the time (with start times varying at 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a, 6a, 8a, 10a...and even the occasional afternoon) and usually put in 6 days in a row if I have no other plans. I haven't been to bed before 10pm each night. And, believe it or not, I have a life outside of work. Time for you to learn the greatness of the 30-60 minute afternoon power-nap.

If I remember correctly from before you found a dispatching job, I think you were adequately warned.

 

[XPOO]

Walter...

I was thinking the same thing. You sleep from 3pm-6pm and then wake up and watch all your sports game and have a beer or two and eat. By 9 or 10, you're ready for bed again. This way you at least get a 7-8 hours of sleep a day. Just not all at one time. Soon it will become part of your regular routine.

 

[dispatchguy]

As a licensed airman, you are responsible to manage your own rest schedule in order to be rested for your duty schedule.

If that means you miss quality bonding time with the missus, well then, you miss it if you need that bonding time to rest for your scheduled shift.

What your definition of "well rested" is up to you.

All that the air carrier is responsible for is to schedule you in accordance with FAR, nothing less, and nothing more (unless you're in a union shop).

6 hours of sleep a nite, damn; I'm 40 and that is my standard sleep time, the older you get the less sleep you require (one of life's more dastardly lessons).

 

[propsarebest]

I work 12 hour shifts, 5a-5p. We work 4 on and 4 off. There are 8 in our office, and 2 are out on vacation. sooo, that means that we get to pick up the slack, which means that one person is currently working 16 days in a row.

Ohh yea, I work for a supp. carrier, so all those cushy FARS about not working over 8 hours and over 6 days don't apply.

Welcome to the real world.

 

[dispatchguy]

I work 12 hour shifts, 5a-5p. We work 4 on and 4 off. There are 8 in our office, and 2 are out on vacation. sooo, that means that we get to pick up the slack, which means that one person is currently working 16 days in a row.

Ohh yea, I work for a supp. carrier, so all those cushy FARS about not working over 8 hours and over 6 days don't apply.

Welcome to the real world.

We can work up to 10 hours, and over 6 days, the reg continues on and says "or the equivalent thereof in a calendar month"

You must be thinking pilots, which would be nice.

 

[bcp7]

Dispatch guy, you're correct for Par 121.465 for Domestic or Flag dispatchers, but there are no duty time limitations for Flight Followers under Part 121 Supplemental rules.

 

[bcp7]

I currently show up for my shift at 4 am and get off at 2. On this current schedule I am barely getting 6 hours of sleep a night. By day 4 I'm ready to drop. When you're married, and your wife doesn't get him until 6:30pm...

Get a nap in between the time you get home from work, and the time your wife gets home. Depending on your commute to and from work, you should be able to get a couple of hours sleep.

 

[hoover]

Yes, your schedule is crazy. It's exactly the same schedule I had at Air Wisconsin, which is why I left. (the airline and the profession). The problem is that management refuses to acknowledge human factors in aviation. The hours between 2 and 3AM, in the circadium rythym are when people are typically in their deepest and most restful sleep, were the hours I spent waking up and getting ready for work. I was dead-tired exhausted for a solid year. Unfortunately, for better or worse, this is what the job is. With seniority things get a little better, but not much. Make your decision.

 

[hoover]

I ended up working a 20 hour day! No, I didnt pitch a bitch about a 10hr max violation, for I did see it as an emergency situation, and the shortage was not foreseeable; it wasnt like the PM shift was uncovered and I got juniored for it; for if that had happened, I probably wouldve told them to go pound sand. Thankfully the weather in the entire system was hard VFR, and the airplanes were all cooperating, ATC was playing nice, the crews werent calling in sick (plus, it did make me look like a savior to the front office shmoes)

The situation you describe was not an emergency. An emergency is where you are at or over your 10 hour limit, and you still have planes in the air (say, due to ATC holds and reroutes while enroute). Every airplane has to land, but not a single one HAS to take off. FARs say an airplane cannot take off if that crew is not legal to finish the fight (Whitlow interpretation I believe). I see no reason why that should be any different for dispatchers. If that airplane cannot be on the ground by the end of your 10 hour shift, then it cannot be released.

 

[alpine1989]

The situation you describe was not an emergency. An emergency is where you are at or over your 10 hour limit, and you still have planes in the air (say, due to ATC holds and reroutes while enroute). Every airplane has to land, but not a single one HAS to take off. FARs say an airplane cannot take off if that crew is not legal to finish the fight (Whitlow interpretation I believe). I see no reason why that should be any different for dispatchers. If that airplane cannot be on the ground by the end of your 10 hour shift, then it cannot be released.

The reg states that a Dispatcher can not be Scheduled over 10 hours. We routinely work 8+8 hour double shifts. The FAA dances around this one and has never ruled that extending beyond 10 hours for a sick call busts the reg.

 

[SKC]

An emergency is where you are at or over your 10 hour limit, and you still have planes in the air (say, due to ATC holds and reroutes while enroute).

Surely you're not serious. [I am serious and don't call me Shirley. sorry just had to]

An emergency is where you are AT your 10 hr limit? How many dispatch initiated emergencies have you declared when that 10th hour struck? I'm sure your company loves you.

 

[bcp7]

The reg states that a Dispatcher can not be Scheduled over 10 hours. We routinely work 8+8 hour double shifts. The FAA dances around this one and has never ruled that extending beyond 10 hours for a sick call busts the reg.

Where do you work?

I would say your carrier has poor management in the Dispatch area, resulting in insufficient staffing and poor scheduling.

In 9 years as a Part 121 Dispatcher under Domestic or Flag Rules, I have never had to work a shift in longer than ten hours. I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift. It is a question of management and manpower. None of these airlines had more than 10 dispatchers working the desk.

 

[dispatchguy]

Well - I have heard of dispatchers doing doubles like that in an 8+8 fashion.

Work the first 8 hours as a dispatcher cranking releases and working a desk.
Work the 2nd 8 hours as an ATC coordinator (their internal requirements for the position requires the ADX certificate, however, since they arent "exercising their certificate" the el Federale says thats ok.

And this is a union shop that this happens in; happens all the time.

 

[dispatchguy]

I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift.

Nothing I hate more than a quickturn. I know its legal, but I feel as alive as a cadaver that 2nd shift, and my body clock feels like its been hit with a truck. I actually feel just like a warm body on the desk - hopefully is VFR systemwide...

Now with my multiple sclerosis, I wonder how a quick turn would go now; hopefully I wont have to find out...

 

[Starbuck]

Are you working for ASA ? if so no problem most OCS operate on that schedule.

 

[bcp7]

Well - I have heard of dispatchers doing doubles like that in an 8+8 fashion.

Work the first 8 hours as a dispatcher cranking releases and working a desk.
Work the 2nd 8 hours as an ATC coordinator (their internal requirements for the position requires the ADX certificate, however, since they arent "exercising their certificate" the el Federale says thats ok.

And this is a union shop that this happens in; happens all the time.

I know guys at UAL and COA that do this. Most of them on their last day, and going in to days off.

It is different from working consecutive 8 hour shifts as a dispatcher.

I didn't like quick turns either, one was draining and two in a row was outright brutal. I am glad it didn't happen often. That carrier operated with just 5 line dispatchers for 14 years, before they figured out having a vacation/relief dispatcher would be cheaper than paying OT. The downside of course, is the first 5 dispatchers lost 10k or more per year in OT.

 

[alpine1989]

Where do you work?

I would say your carrier has poor management in the Dispatch area, resulting in insufficient staffing and poor scheduling.

In 9 years as a Part 121 Dispatcher under Domestic or Flag Rules, I have never had to work a shift in longer than ten hours. I have worked an 8 hour shift, taken 8 hours rest and worked another 8 hour shift. It is a question of management and manpower. None of these airlines had more than 10 dispatchers working the desk.

I work at a small 121 carrier. There are two Dispatchers on duty working 8 hour shifts. When there is a sick call the overtime list is called. If nobody accepts the OT and JA is not an option, the 8 hour shift extension will be offered to both Dispatchers on duty. If they don't volunatrily accept it, the junior guy will get JA'ed.

We are a union shop. This is not addressed in the CBA. The Dispatchers would rather work a few doubles every year than get into some sort of reserve situation. This is not a regional where the Dispatcher would have cut another 60+ releases on the second shift. In most cases all of the releases can be done in the first 8 hours. You guys are looking at this in the context of somebody getting screwed. Most folks in this office are happy to do the double especially on their Friday.

Our Dispatch ASI is aware of this practice and has no problem with it. Again, the reg says scheduled 10 hours. Nobody is scheduled more than 8 hours.

 

[bcp7]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

 

[alpine1989]

If your airline "routinely' has dispatchers working consecutive 8 hour shifts, that violates the intent if not the wording of the regulation.

If there are no releases performed by the second shift, why do you need 2 dispatchers on duty? One should be sufficient for flight following.

Are you serious? You want to argue intent???

How is this any different that pilot international duty?

How would you cover a sick call?

The alternative is reserve. People want to work the doubles.

 

[dispatchguy]

I would agree.

The difference between the occasional double and pilot international duty limitations is that those are permitted by 121, and the "routine" of having open shifts which dispatchers are JA'ed for, after working a shift, to me also violates the INTENT of the regulation.

How often do open shifts occur? To me that is the question. My experience was also at a very small (5) shop, and in the year I was there, only occurred once (as recounted above).

If its only (on average) a once annual thing, then I would say that that is ok. However, if it is say a monthly thing, to me that seems like the intent of the reg is being violated, for that would sound like they have insufficient people to cover the flight schedule as currently staffed. Reorganize the workload, since you say that the 2nd shift may not have any actual releasing, just flight following.

Even at my 5 DX shop, we always had at least one overtime ho in the shop who was more than happy to pickup OT.

 

[XPOO]

I used to work for a charter airline. You'd go to bed thinking you worked at 6am, then in the middle of the night they would pick up a charter and ask you to come in at 2am instead. Then, if your 10 hours was up before the night guy was scheduled to come in they would call someone to come cover on their day off. If that didn't work, the night guy got called in early and the morning guy was told to report back in 10 hours to relieve the night guy. Not that this happened all the time. But about once every two weeks and almost every day in March. And there was hardly ever more than one dispatcher present at any one time throughout the day.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I currently show up for my shift at 4 am and get off at 2. On this current schedule I am barely getting 6 hours of sleep a night. By day 4 I'm ready to drop. When you're married, and your wife doesn't get him until 6:30pm...by the time you eat dinner...getting to bed to make 8 hours of sleep is almost impossible. Now I just found out that they want us to start coming in at 3 am!!!! I seriously have no idea how I'm going to do it....I guess sleeping pills and Tim Hortons will become my friend. Can dispatchers call fatigue?

Man I wish I had a 4 to 2 schedule when working 4 day shifts. Most of my work days are 12+ with 14 to 15 hours being quite normal. And that does not include the time spent going to and from work. 6 Hours a night of sleep is about the norm for me while on a 4 day shift.

Of Course I guess as a pilot I don't need any more than that. I just fly the things, not like the Captain needs to be awake and alert or anything.

Bottom line is that we are all in the same boat here. None of us gets any good sleep in this industry except for the CEO's and Crew managment folks.

I can normally tell when my dispatchers are running on no sleep, I start seeing large errors on the releases. Had a situation a couple days ago where the long runway at an airport was closed due to an incident but the numbers sent on the release still had all the performance based on the long runway. Had I not caught it we would have been way overweight and grossly illegal and possibly ended up in the bushes ourselves.

This is not just a dispatch problem, Most of the pilots out there are near zombies by the end of a trip too.

 

[bcp7]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

 

[alpine1989]

Yes, I will argue "intent". I believe the "intent" is actually more important than the actual wording.

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

I guess I have been fortunate in my co-workers and subordinates over the years. I have never once had a person that was available to work an open shift for sick call not work it. Sick calls have been very rare in my experience except for situations requiring surgery.

We get several sick calls per week. Sometimes several in one day. A few times 2 for the same shift.

When the OT list is called, NOBODY ANSWERS THE PHONE. I guess at your shop everyone wants to work so they answer the phone at all hours of the night to help the company. They wouldn't want the Company to violate the intent of an FAR.

 

[alpine1989]

If your manning is that thin, your management should work vacation coverage and sick calls just like I do.

The CBA doesn't allow it.