Is this profession in peril?

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well said Lear....

There is a difference between politicians and leaders....Very few politicians are leaders....

yet Americans, who bother to vote, still elect thos politicians and then complain they are not leaders... oh wait... that is you Joey...

Blaiming the membership for the failures of the organization is not going to get more people involved.....Can anyone see the NRA or AOPA blaiming everything on it's members....

The NRA and AOPA are hobby organization.... get real....

 

[Lear70]

Actually, I thought the NRA and AOPA are two excellent examples you've brought up.

They seem to accomplish quite a bit using lobbying power alone,,, however,,, they don't have a membership who has to vote on contracts.

ALPA could take a large lesson on how to manage their lobbying power effectively from these two organizations, but the issue still remains with how to fix your base problems when the membership is completely divided on goals and priorities.

From Senior CA's to Junior F/O's, from Legacy Carriers to Regional Affiliates, all represented by the same Collective Bargaining Agent. The "goal" *SHOULD* be to find a middle ground; unfortunately, and we all know it, the senior legacy CA's are the ones driving the bus...

That's why I'm glad that AAI has the NPA. For the first time I can remember in organized labor history, a T.A. was rejected in large part due to F/O wages and reserve pilot work rules. Certainly the CA's want more, but they are also supporting their F/O's, junior CA's on reserve, and new-hires.

If ALPA could show the same resolve and rebuild their strategy from the ground-up, they might actually be worth saving.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez- as a regional pilot- i did not have a say in releasing scope. Many of the mainline decisions affect their regional counterparts and every young pilot-Your actions very much have a say in what opportunities are available to younger pilots-.

Agreed, as regional pilots we are simply vendors who provide lift for the major brand...

Recall major airline can live without the regional... but the vice versa...

Neither do i have a voice now as a probationary pilot.

Do you see this as a problem? Now, if you had to pay dues, I think you could.

Yet my career at the regionals was very much prolonged b/c 50/70/90 seat RJ's were allowed to grow OFF THE MAINLINE PROPERTY UNDER COMMUTER CONTRACTS- though they were clearly replacement jets for the AB/73/S80 type a/c.

so you are saying that you'd go right into the majors if the regionals didn't exist?

Tell me where i had a voice in that. Did all the guys who were furloughed so that regionals could grow have a vote?

So you want furloughed guys to be able to vote? Should they pay dues?

You'll have to remind me which thread i didn't respond to on the seniority issue, Rez- sorry.

National Sen list.. a Pan Am pilot loses his B747 CA job when PanAM folds... you think he should go to UAL with Seniority and be a UAL B747 CA over all UAL pilots. If the Pan AM rate was higher than UAL should he get that too?

 

[PCL_128]

That's why I'm glad that AAI has the NPA.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. The NPA is the one thing holding us back. If we had a real union, you wouldn't be flying Lears right now.

 

[Lear70]

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

OK, that was funny...

The NPA is the one thing holding us back. If we had a real union, you wouldn't be flying Lears right now.

You don't believe that and neither do I. If I was at PCL and they had done this, PCL ALPA wouldn't have been able to do anything, either...

The difference is in the legal representation moving forward and how fast they can force it to arbitration. I don't believe having ALPA on property would force it any quicker and the NPA is helping me explore my legal options.

Can't say more until after April 2nd, maybe later, depending on a few things. Yes, I know that's after System Board, give me a call and I'll explain it, can't post more here.

Bottom line, I'm somewhat glad we're separated from ALPA until they get their house in order. Yes, their services and war chest are second-to-none and, yes, it's our pilots who made the difference on the last T.A., but watching AP and group was like a re-run of watching PCL ALPA - a bunch of senior guys knowing they were never going anywhere else and maneuvering to make the best of it for themselves... That's how ALPA works in general, at each individual MEC, and it needs to stop.

 

[JoeMerchant]

yet Americans, who bother to vote, still elect thos politicians and then complain they are not leaders... oh wait... that is you Joey...

Actually I wish fewer people actually voted....Most people don't educate themselves....they just vote based on sound bites and campaign posters....and even based on color or gender.....Many blacks are going to vote for Obama because he is black....many women are going to vote for Hillary because she is a woman.....If I voted for a white male because he was white or male....I would be a racist or a sexist.....But I digress.....

Most politicians are not leaders....The only leader I saw in the Presidential election that wasn't a politician was Ron Paul....That's who I voted for even though I don't agree with him on everything.....There were also eliments of leadership from Fred Thompson as he was the only one who wanted to address the pressing issue of entitlement programs.....or the third rail of politics...He was the one I supported until he dropped out.....

When I vote in November, I will vote for the lesser of two evils....and I will complain if they don't lead.....that is my right. Politicians get elected...leaders usually don't.....

The NRA and AOPA are hobby organization.... get real....

Actually the Second Amendment is more than just a hobby to most of us and it is General Aviation that gave me my start in this great profession....so I will never turn my back on it.....They are more than just "hobbies"....but I digress...

Regardless of what type of organization you want to classify them....there is no question that they are very powerful lobbies in Washington DC.....I would venture to say the average Congressman fears the NRA more than ALPA.....How is that given that most NRA members don't participate and the dues are far less....

How do they do it Rez?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Neither the NRA or AOPA are tied to your house payment...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Neither the NRA or AOPA are tied to your house payment...

....boy your debating skills are about as impressive as the rest of the Herndon clan.....

1. The second amendment is tied to my property....It is far more important than any of the issues we are debating here.....But I digress.....

2. General Aviation got me to where I am today which definately is tied to my house payment....I don't forget my roots....

3. ALPA doesn't really care about my house payments.....They aren't protecting my job.....If I don't pay them, they will cut off the source of my income which does pay my house payment...

4. You still haven't addressed the issue of how these two groups are so effective in DC with very little membership participation and cheaper dues.....You can side step with the best of them....

This is like shooting fish in a barrel....Your losing it Rez.....:laugh:

 

[PCL_128]

Joe, the NRA has 4.3 million members. We have 66,000. We have to work a lot harder to be anywhere near as effective in Washington. There is no comparison. Even AOPA has about 400,000+ members. And they aren't busy using their money to negotiate contracts and save people's jobs. They have a single focus: protecting their members' rights in DC. ALPA doesn't have the luxury of a single focus. We are being attacked from all sides.

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed, as regional pilots we are simply vendors who provide lift for the major brand...

Recall major airline can live without the regional... but the vice versa...
True. But what's your point? My point is that flying mainline routes w/ pilots of separate companies w/ separate lists undermines the seniority system.

Do you see this as a problem? Now, if you had to pay dues, I think you could.
Not particularly- but the practice doesn't recognize that pilots on the bottom of lists do move around- and are voiceless until they get a year in at a carrier.

so you are saying that you'd go right into the majors if the regionals didn't exist?
Depends on your definition of 'right in' -This is not about me, Rez- I'm fine- but there is NO DOUBT i would have been at a major years earlier if the regionals weren't given the ability to grow the 70-90 seat market- releasing scope this much is indefensible and has lengthened the career of the majority of pilots. (Even military- they either had to go to a regional or stay in to wait on the opportunity at a major while traffic was increasing at majors - but not on mainline a/c.

So you want furloughed guys to be able to vote? Should they pay dues?
The point of all this is that you rail on me for not participating. How could I? How could the vast majority of young pilots? We have been forced to count on the senior mainline pilots and there have been few times when we've been looked out for.

National Sen list.. a Pan Am pilot loses his B747 CA job when PanAM folds... you think he should go to UAL with Seniority and be a UAL B747 CA over all UAL pilots. If the Pan AM rate was higher than UAL should he get that too?

A national list would change the entire dynamic of our career. Everything would change. Especially how we bid. You could change companies w/o an airline going out of business... But yes- in your scenario- absolutely the PanAm guy would go whereever his seniority allowed him to go- to whatever company he chose- but remember every United pilot would also be building seniority equally- As long as the market for pilots in the country increased- everyone would have a job w/ their seniority. Note: The demand for aviation is predicted to grow rapidly between now and 2020. The demand for your current company may not be so lucky- Our leverage should be increasing- but it decreases b/c we are so concerned that whatever company we are employed by now remains and stays in it's current form. You said it perfectly on another thread- pilots don't run airlines- why do we give the most important aspect of our career over to management? It's dumb in an environment that changes as quickly as ours does. Think- a national seniority list means not caring if a company goes under- we'll do our best for you but can't be responsible for mismanagement- and then if it does we filter in to whoever fills in the gaps left behind. We don't need a national contract- Maybe that's an incentive for going to FedEx over United- more pay. Maybe you want more day flying- so you bid for United or Northwest- Maybe you just want to be LA based- you could bid the LA airlines in whatever your seniority could hold.
Everything would change.