Is this as bad as it sounds for Flexjet?

[Iam3rd]

Here's a hypothetical for you: In exchange for those two years, they told you that you'd be a type-rated pilot in the Challenger. After you sign the paperwork they say, "Actually, no type rating, and you're going to be a flight attendant." Would that sit well with you? Would you stay on for two years on your word, even though they broke theirs?

"OK, you can be a pilot, but we still won't give you a type rating. And you're still on the hook for two years, because you promised." How about that?


Why should Bombardier be able to hold the pilot to his half of the contract, but he can't hold them to theirs?

It would be safe to say that Bombardier did not sign a contract promising those things. Granted, they should not say and promise things that they can not live up to. But he did sign a contract promising that he would abide by the terms of the contract.

 

[learflyer]

That's why sometimes I wish I had gone to law school like Dad wanted......but I'd like to think I'm actually a human being and not a bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking leech.

That is so freakin' ignorant. Why is a lawyer who zones land for hotels and golf courses a leech? Real estate attorney? Patent attorney? Bankruptcy attorney? There's good and bad in every profession junior.

 

[Hung Start]

So let me play Devil's Advocate here, for a bit.

Mr. Miller claims Flex did not honor their end of the bargain by not typing him. A search of the FAA website shows Mr. Miller does have a Lear 60 rating.
Now, maybe they did not type him from the beginning, but it sure seems they did type him at some time.
And, we all know about upgrade time being the most flexible thing in our business.
Is it wrong to ask someone to stay 2 years to help pay back the investment?

Hung

 

[ultrarunner]

So let me play Devil's Advocate here, for a bit.

Mr. Miller claims Flex did not honor their end of the bargain by not typing him. A search of the FAA website shows Mr. Miller does have a Lear 60 rating.
Now, maybe they did not type him from the beginning, but it sure seems they did type him at some time....

I'm not sure about that Hung. His ATP has a issuance date of 12/2005. So, best case scenario is the LR60 type was the last issued. It appears litigation against Allen occurred in 10/2005. So he'd been off property. My guess he got a new job on a 60 and got typed when he left Flex.

 

[Hung Start]

Ultra:

You could be correct. But, the article mentions he is with NetJets now, and the FAA shows a Citation rating.
I am just guessing that the issuance of 2005 is when he signed on with NJA.
But, it is pure specualtion on my part, as I said, just playing Devil's Advocate.
Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?
I do realise that NJA gave up the practice, and I applaude them for (again) being a leader in the field. I suspect as qualified crewmembers become scarse, a lot of changes will be made in recruitment policies.

Hung

 

[Club ORD FO]

Ultra:


Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?

Hung

my question is, does it make good business sense for Flex to spend what may have bee close to $100,000 (total guess) in legal fees to try and get $5000 from the pilot.

 

[Hung Start]

Ord:

Of course it doesn't make sense. But, sometimes these legal things just seem to generate a life to themselves. You get into something "thinking" it will cost you x, and it becomes x to the power of insanity very quickly. Do you think Mr. Miller would have ever bothered if he knew it would cost him $70K?? I bet he had a number in mind that at least would have broke even, but the thing mushroomed before he knew what hit him. Pride goeth before the fall.
It is just everybodies guess as to what Flex spent. I doubt it was anywhere near that amount, but only bigwigs will ever know.
Mr. Miller did what he thought was right for him, and I am in no position to judge his intentions. All I ask is, if he signed a two year committment, why did he not honor it?

Hung

 

[gunfyter]

Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?

Yes it is unfair. It is an unfair labor practice.

Do the other employees (non pilot) make such a commitment?

Offer competitive pay and benefits and there is no need for a training contract.

 

[Iam3rd]

Yes it is unfair. It is an unfair labor practice.

Do the other employees (non pilot) make such a commitment?

Offer competitive pay and benefits and there is no need for a training contract.

I would have to disagree about it being unfair practice. Granted, we may not like it, but its the companys choice. And if you accept the job and are willing to sign your name promising to pay it back then you are saying that you are ok with it. If you are not ok with it and feel you can't abide by the terms then find a job that better meets your needs. Its called integrity. Something which is hard to find now days. There use to be a day when your word was all that was needed for an agreement. Now signing your name and threats of taking your right arm doesn't even work any more.

Also, the company does not spend $20,000 on training for (non pilot) employees. So you are not compairing apples to apples.

I will agree with your last statement though.

 

[Hung Start]

Gunfyter:

I just don't see what is unfair about the request. At the interview, you are told about it. It sure seems reasonable at the time, or nobody would accept it.
It always amazed me to watch over the years, how applicants would comment about "brand N" being an amazing place, can't wait to start, and "Brand F" is super, wish they had more domiciles, etc after the interview. Then, a year later it is " I hate the place, I can't live where I want" etc.
You saw it at NJA after they went to 5 domiciles, everybody still signed up, then later complained.
It just seems to be the same issue here. Mr. Miiller knew the committment, happily signed up, and then, some time later, saw a better opportunity at the competition.
To me the 2 year deal is just like the base. If you are hired into Dallas, but you live in Fargo, when do you get to say the company "cheated" you?
I too wish some things would change at Flex, the domiciles being one of them. But I knew the deal when I signed on. Same with the 2 year contract. So, when do I get to change the rule because I don't like it?
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the compensation comment, but I still do not see a problem with them asking for a commitment for the investment made. The marketplace will sort this out, when Flex feels they cannot get qualified applicants, I am sure the policy will change. Just as it did at NetJets.

Hung

My two cents, thats all this is.

 

[Club ORD FO]

I feel the same about training contracts as I do about cell phone company contracts. They suck and should not exist

 

[Hung Start]

Well, I agree with you there. But, they were brought on because of a need. And, we all agree to them when the thing is nice and new and shiny. Just sucks when the glitter wears off.
I still say honor your commitment.

Hung

 

[Club ORD FO]

I dont think you understand the point of training contracts. They are not designed to keep people who hate their job from leaving, they are meant to keep from applying to Flexjet JUST to get a type rating, and then run off and use that type to get a job somewhere else. If somebody wants to quit let 'em quit, and without charging them upwards of 10 grand. A person who does not want to be here is not going to be a good addition to the company, and by charging a fee to quit FlexJet is more or less forcing bad people to stay.

Now...do you agree with that?

 

[Hung Start]

I agree with you completely. I understand training contracts.
I am sure nobody wants disgruntled people walking around, and that is not the point of the commitment.
It is simply to get people from rating shopping, but, it also does make you think whether you are willing to spend two years of your life working for this company.
At least it should.
Like I said, I am not at all saying this should be standard practice. In a perfect world with perfect employees and perfect employers, it would not be needed. But we all know how imperfect the world is.
My whole point in this thread was, if you commit, honor your word.

I'll meet you meet you in the lobby of the Hazmat during a morning wake up call, and we will continue this discussion.

Hung

 

[gunfyter]

Type ratings are a cost of doing business... like putting fuel in the jet.

The first trip you fly that would otherwise have been sold off to a charter flight... the company has recovered the cost of the type.

Training contracts say :

"We know we don't pay you properly... so we are going to keep you a captive with this training contract."
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What if they instead kept you captive by offering a $20K bonus when you saty 2 years... and every 2 yrs thereafter?

 

[finnjl]

I have never been a fan of training contracts in our business....I have always felt that companies that require them know the work environment is bad and it is a tool to keep pilots from leaving....actually I think of all the night freight operators require them so you will not leave right away

with that being said.....I like working at Flex

 

[doylehargraves]

i wonder who the manager was that got busted for perjury

I heard it was a certain person in HR and a certain person that just got demoted a few months back. Not saying any names. Just a rumor.