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Is this as bad as it sounds for Flexjet?

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TailDraggerTed

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 3, 2004
Posts
45
Is this as bad as it sounds for Flexjet?

What does Flexjet have to say about this?

ARTICLE

Pilot wins lawsuit against Bombardier Flexjet

Firm used deceptive practices, jury finds
1200 AM CST on Saturday, February 9, 2008

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News
A Dallas jury has found Bombardier Flexjet's contract with a former pilot unenforceable, saying the Richardson-based private jet company used deceptive practices in promising pilots promotions and training.
Flexjet, which sells private jet service, sued Allen Miller of Plano in October 2005 for failing to repay a portion of his training costs after he flew for the company for 17 months starting in April 2000. The pilots' contract stated that pilots who left the company before working 24 months would repay a portion of their training costs, or $5,280 in Mr. Miller's case.
Mr. Miller, 52, countersued, arguing that Flexjet had falsely promised rapid promotions for new pilots and training that would help them get their official rating quickly on various types of corporate jets.
"These promises turned out to be lies," he said, especially the part about becoming a captain and earning more than $50,000 a year, well above the initial pay of $32,000 a year. "We were cheap labor to them."
In an interview, Mr. Miller said he thought it was particularly deceptive that the company emphasized to its customers that for safety reasons both captain and co-pilot would be fully rated on the planes flown. "I flew their planes for 17 months without my type rating," he said.
Calls for comment to Flexjet's spokeswoman and Jones & Davis attorney Chad Berry, who represented Flexjet in the case, weren't returned Friday.
The jury returned its verdict Monday, finding that the contract was invalid and that Flexjet had used deceptive trade practices, said Rob Wiley, attorney for Mr. Miller.
However, the jury awarded Mr. Miller no damages in his countersuit against Flexjet, and he probably will have to bear his own legal costs.
Mr. Miller estimated his legal expenses were about $70,000, but he believes he's among the very first pilots to successfully challenge Flexjet's pilot contract.
"It was a real education for me," he said.
Flexjet's Richardson operations employed 809 people last year, according to information from the company.
Mr. Miller now flies for Netjets Inc. of Woodbridge, N.J., which is owned by Berkshire-Hathway Inc.
 
I'm glad someone actually stood up for themselves. Yeah, lots of money down the tubes for this guy, but he stood on his principals. Good on him...
 
But the attorneys got paid...

That's why sometimes I wish I had gone to law school like Dad wanted......but I'd like to think I'm actually a human being and not a bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking leech.
 
That's why sometimes I wish I had gone to law school like Dad wanted......but I'd like to think I'm actually a human being and not a bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking leech.

:laugh:

My father's a (retired) lawyer, and is proof positive that it's possible to be a good lawyer without being an ambulance chaser, a bottom feeder, or a guy who advertises on the Jerry Springer show. :rolleyes:

That said, I didn't want to get into it because I found it incredibly boring work. Everybody has different ideas of the perfect job, I guess.
 
No one has a father that is a bottom feeder. The same as everyone's kid is perfect.
 
I'm trying to argue pretty much the same thing at a small 91/135 outfit where I last worked..... So this is definitely good news.

I was typed in the a/c but did not upgrade as was told to me at the interview. I went into the job expecting to be PIC but ended up spending the first year as SIC. Then I moved on, feeling that I had been lied to. From what I understood, the only reason was that they didn't want to pay me more money.
 
hmmm...dang I know I saw somewhere that a flexjet manager lied on the stand. i guess it was in a different article, or perhaps I'm totally crazy. I cant seem to find it so I obviously cant back it up.
 
Wouldn't matter to me. They asked me to stay 2 years, I told them I would.
I don't need a piece of paper to honor my word.

Hung
 
Wouldn't matter to me. They asked me to stay 2 years, I told them I would.
I don't need a piece of paper to honor my word.

Here's a hypothetical for you: In exchange for those two years, they told you that you'd be a type-rated pilot in the Challenger. After you sign the paperwork they say, "Actually, no type rating, and you're going to be a flight attendant." Would that sit well with you? Would you stay on for two years on your word, even though they broke theirs?

"OK, you can be a pilot, but we still won't give you a type rating. And you're still on the hook for two years, because you promised." How about that?


Why should Bombardier be able to hold the pilot to his half of the contract, but he can't hold them to theirs?
 
I understand what you are saying, and if true, what THEY did was wrong.
All I know is Flex has met and exceeded all my expectations. I did my research before I applied, asked a bunch of questions, and took the job. I don't know what was the past, all I know is how they have treated me. And they have treated me fairly.
Did this gentleman get his type? I did not see that listed anywhere. If he did, I would expect him to live up to his obligation.
And, two wrongs still don't make the situation right.

Hung
 
That's why sometimes I wish I had gone to law school like Dad wanted......but I'd like to think I'm actually a human being and not a bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking leech.

I'd say you be singin a far different tune the day you find yourself needing one. (knock on wood):smash:

There's good and bad in all industry. Granted the %'s are skewed. But still good ones out there.
 
Here's a hypothetical for you: In exchange for those two years, they told you that you'd be a type-rated pilot in the Challenger. After you sign the paperwork they say, "Actually, no type rating, and you're going to be a flight attendant." Would that sit well with you? Would you stay on for two years on your word, even though they broke theirs?

"OK, you can be a pilot, but we still won't give you a type rating. And you're still on the hook for two years, because you promised." How about that?


Why should Bombardier be able to hold the pilot to his half of the contract, but he can't hold them to theirs?

It would be safe to say that Bombardier did not sign a contract promising those things. Granted, they should not say and promise things that they can not live up to. But he did sign a contract promising that he would abide by the terms of the contract.
 
That's why sometimes I wish I had gone to law school like Dad wanted......but I'd like to think I'm actually a human being and not a bottom-dwelling, scum-sucking leech.

That is so freakin' ignorant. Why is a lawyer who zones land for hotels and golf courses a leech? Real estate attorney? Patent attorney? Bankruptcy attorney? There's good and bad in every profession junior.
 
So let me play Devil's Advocate here, for a bit.

Mr. Miller claims Flex did not honor their end of the bargain by not typing him. A search of the FAA website shows Mr. Miller does have a Lear 60 rating.
Now, maybe they did not type him from the beginning, but it sure seems they did type him at some time.
And, we all know about upgrade time being the most flexible thing in our business.
Is it wrong to ask someone to stay 2 years to help pay back the investment?

Hung
 
So let me play Devil's Advocate here, for a bit.

Mr. Miller claims Flex did not honor their end of the bargain by not typing him. A search of the FAA website shows Mr. Miller does have a Lear 60 rating.
Now, maybe they did not type him from the beginning, but it sure seems they did type him at some time....


I'm not sure about that Hung. His ATP has a issuance date of 12/2005. So, best case scenario is the LR60 type was the last issued. It appears litigation against Allen occurred in 10/2005. So he'd been off property. My guess he got a new job on a 60 and got typed when he left Flex.
 
Ultra:

You could be correct. But, the article mentions he is with NetJets now, and the FAA shows a Citation rating.
I am just guessing that the issuance of 2005 is when he signed on with NJA.
But, it is pure specualtion on my part, as I said, just playing Devil's Advocate.
Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?
I do realise that NJA gave up the practice, and I applaude them for (again) being a leader in the field. I suspect as qualified crewmembers become scarse, a lot of changes will be made in recruitment policies.

Hung
 
Ultra:


Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?

Hung

my question is, does it make good business sense for Flex to spend what may have bee close to $100,000 (total guess) in legal fees to try and get $5000 from the pilot.
 
Ord:

Of course it doesn't make sense. But, sometimes these legal things just seem to generate a life to themselves. You get into something "thinking" it will cost you x, and it becomes x to the power of insanity very quickly. Do you think Mr. Miller would have ever bothered if he knew it would cost him $70K?? I bet he had a number in mind that at least would have broke even, but the thing mushroomed before he knew what hit him. Pride goeth before the fall.
It is just everybodies guess as to what Flex spent. I doubt it was anywhere near that amount, but only bigwigs will ever know.
Mr. Miller did what he thought was right for him, and I am in no position to judge his intentions. All I ask is, if he signed a two year committment, why did he not honor it?

Hung
 
Again I ask, is it unfair for a employer to ask for a commitment for the investment it makes?
Yes it is unfair. It is an unfair labor practice.

Do the other employees (non pilot) make such a commitment?

Offer competitive pay and benefits and there is no need for a training contract.
 
Yes it is unfair. It is an unfair labor practice.

Do the other employees (non pilot) make such a commitment?

Offer competitive pay and benefits and there is no need for a training contract.

I would have to disagree about it being unfair practice. Granted, we may not like it, but its the companys choice. And if you accept the job and are willing to sign your name promising to pay it back then you are saying that you are ok with it. If you are not ok with it and feel you can't abide by the terms then find a job that better meets your needs. Its called integrity. Something which is hard to find now days. There use to be a day when your word was all that was needed for an agreement. Now signing your name and threats of taking your right arm doesn't even work any more.

Also, the company does not spend $20,000 on training for (non pilot) employees. So you are not compairing apples to apples.

I will agree with your last statement though.
 
Last edited:
Gunfyter:

I just don't see what is unfair about the request. At the interview, you are told about it. It sure seems reasonable at the time, or nobody would accept it.
It always amazed me to watch over the years, how applicants would comment about "brand N" being an amazing place, can't wait to start, and "Brand F" is super, wish they had more domiciles, etc after the interview. Then, a year later it is " I hate the place, I can't live where I want" etc.
You saw it at NJA after they went to 5 domiciles, everybody still signed up, then later complained.
It just seems to be the same issue here. Mr. Miiller knew the committment, happily signed up, and then, some time later, saw a better opportunity at the competition.
To me the 2 year deal is just like the base. If you are hired into Dallas, but you live in Fargo, when do you get to say the company "cheated" you?
I too wish some things would change at Flex, the domiciles being one of them. But I knew the deal when I signed on. Same with the 2 year contract. So, when do I get to change the rule because I don't like it?
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the compensation comment, but I still do not see a problem with them asking for a commitment for the investment made. The marketplace will sort this out, when Flex feels they cannot get qualified applicants, I am sure the policy will change. Just as it did at NetJets.

Hung

My two cents, thats all this is.
 

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