Is Song singing the Blues?

[Kid Charlemagne]

Hey all....I guess SONG is fixin' to start flying very soon.

We all heard the promises made a few months back, e.g. TV's at every seat, movies, games, music, etc. Well, then Delta announced the IFE wouldn't be available until October - six months after SONG's rollout.

Now I'm hearing from a number of sources that October won't happen either. SONG is having lots of problems getting the IFE up and running, technology problems, patent problems, etc. And the company they went to for the install only has experience on wide-body airplanes, not narrowbodies like the 757! Not good!!

So bottom line, SONG is now looking at an EXTRA 18 months to get the IFE going - that's a full 2 years after the roll-out this month! I guess you could say they over-promised. What do you think the pax will say when they get on a lime-green 757 and look for the amazing IFE they were promised - and it ain't there??

SONG has some turbulence ahead. I don't think B6 is too worried right now.....General Lee care to comment? What have u heard?

 

[General Lee]

Well, I haven't heard anything about the extension of the IFE system, and I doubt Delta would just leave the passengers with nothing--squat. I did see a picture of the lime green 757, and it looked nice. You have to remember, our Delta leadership is pretty sharp and Salvaggio isn't new to the business, so I think they can see what is going on. I know that Song announced new LAS-FLL service for August--so they are going to expand West--and sooner than I thought. Let's see how it goes. Atleast Delta has done something to combat Jetblue. What will United use again? Isn't a "starfish" another word or a '60's term for an Anus? Darn, I am showing my age.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tkr-toad]

IFE? This is what I suggest

http://www.ecstasky.com/

 

[pilotyip]

What about ATL-JFK

What is DAL going to do to combat JB on the ATL-JFK route and the LGB-ATL route, lower rates and complete against itself on its most profitable routes?

 

[HarleyGuy]

I could be wrong, but...

I remember hearing that JetBlue had actually purchased the company that provides the satellite IFE. Anybody know for sure? And if they did, maybe that's one reason Song's having trouble getting it set up?

 

[chazman]

Yes, JebBlue did purchase LiveTV. Song is trying to use the only other domestic Satellite TV Provider, Echostar or more commonly known as Dish Network. They did not yet have a product to sell. They are still developing the technology for production whereas Live TV was already selling Direct TV.
Chaz

 

[stillaboo]

Jet Blue bought LiveTV so that they could own the rights to the Direct TV installation. Either Song has to pay a fee to use LiveTV's technology, or develop it on their own. Anyone want to guess if JetBlue will even let Song purchase rights to use it?

NEW YORK, NY (September 27, 2002) - JetBlue Airways (Nasdaq: JBLU) announced today that it has completed the previously announced acquisition of LiveTV, LLC, an innovative provider of inflight entertainment services for single-aisle commercial aircraft and a developer of other wireless technologies. JetBlue has offered customers LiveTV with up to 24 channels of DIRECTV® programming free of charge since April 2000.

Under the terms of the purchase agreement, JetBlue has acquired 100% of the ownership interests in LiveTV, LLC for $41 million in cash and the retirement of $39 million of LiveTV debt. The acquisition is expected to have no material impact on JetBlue's earnings per share over the next few years and to be mildly accretive to earnings thereafter. LiveTV is now a wholly owned subsidiary of JetBlue Airways, operating as an independent unit that continues to be managed by existing LiveTV management and marketed under the LiveTV name.

"With the completion of this acquisition, we have helped to ensure the continuity of an asset we know is highly valued by our customers," said Dave Barger, president and COO of JetBlue. "We look forward to developing new ways to improve the JetBlue experience."

 

[G4G5]

Jet Blue had no choice but to go with the purchase of Live TV. Neeleman in an effort to save money went with the lowest bidder. Then when Live TV ran into financial trouble he was caught between a rock and a hard place.

From Avionics magazine Jan 2003:
Matsu**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**a Avionics Systems Corp. and Rockwell Collins Passenger Systems dominate the integrated IFE market in the commercial aviation segment, each holding about a 45 percent share, according to Weltsch. Thales Avionics-Inflight Systems ranks third with a nearly 10 percent market share, and there is a small contender, Delta Beta.

From B6's 10/4/02 SEC 8K filing:
Using available cash and cash equivalents, JetBlue paid $41,237,113 to purchase the membership interests of LiveTV and paid $38,969,639 to retire the LiveTV obligations that were guaranteed by Harris Corporation and Thales Avionics

Live TV had less then 10% of the market, they were getting crushed by the big 2 who have 90% of the market. They were going bankrupt (do a Google search). They were almost $39 million in debt and were ready to shut the doors. Neeleman realized that if they went under he was screwed because he would have to go with a higher cost supplier and the rest of his A320's would have a different system. So he forked over $80 million, because he was their only customer.

The problem is JetBlue now has less then 10% of the IFE system market and now owns a company that could not make money. They are an airline who is now in the IFE business.

When in reality they are competiting against the big boys. I had 900+ channels in my G4 and G5 before B6 had their first aircraft. Their are plenty of systems and options for all the airlines. Just no money. Once the economy turns who do you think will have a better system, Rockwell Collins with 45% of the market and all of their R&D or Live tv and Jetblue?

Where the koolaid drinkers are confused is the difference betwen the actual sat transmission and the installation. I love it when I run into a Blue aid drinker that tells me, "we have the only system, we bought the company, no one else can have it". I had friend of mine, who recently flew B6 tell him that the FA told him that

No, Hughes/GM owns the satelite and Direct TV (this week, Rupert Murdoch just paid $6.6 billion for it). All B6 did was purchase a bankrupt company who had an STC to install the system onto the A320. Just think of it this way, how many airlines had telephones on board? Att, GTE, whomever, yesterdays technology. This week it's sat radio and email. Next it's going to be the internet. Who is better equiped to bring it to you. B6 and LiveTV or Matsushiita and Rockwell Collins?

I am not bashing B6, it was smart for Neeleman to use it as a marketing tool. Techonology advances at such a pace, he had to jump in somewhere. Just don't believe everything you hear from the guy in ops. Take 5 minutes and do the research

 

[Heavy Set]

G4G5,

Interesting info related to Jetblue and its TV vendor - not surprising that acquisition was the only real option... That means Jetblue would need to pour more money into R&D if they want to sell more TVs in the future - to be competitive in that business. What a headache!

Quick unrelated questions:

Why would you leave a job flying a GIV and GV and go to American? Were you flying those in the military? Sounds like a great gig.... How did you like flying the GV vs. the MD80, etc. at American? Do you have an option to fly those again if you are furloughed? I wish I had those options!!!!!!!!!!!


Cheers

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Kid,

Actually, Delta has said all along that the IFE would not be ready until Oct. Your post made it sound like it was pushed back after the announcement.

Also, could you please state your sources? I don't disbelieve you, but I keep my ear pretty close to the ground over here, and I have heard no such thing. I am interested to know the validity of that rumor, for it would be admittedly disappointing if true.

Thanks.

 

[G4G5]

Quick unrelated questions:

Why would you leave a job flying a GIV and GV and go to American?
My wife is asking me the very same question. At the time, 1999-2000. I was 33, maxed out as a G5 captain making a descent 6 figure salery with a fortune 50 company. The thing was, with UAL/DAL pay rates,(AA was up for a contract so I assumed they would just raise the bar, lol) at the time I could make the same salery as a 4th year FO. Plus I could still get a full 25 year pension and a little more control of my life. So, I gave it a shot.

Were you flying those in the military?
Nope I started out as an A&P.

Sounds like a great gig.... How did you like flying the GV vs. the MD80, etc. at American?
No comparison the G5 was a rocket ship. Two BR710's (717 motors) capable of taking you from Tokyo to New York or to FL510. Man did I love taking just one executive from Ny to Bos or PHL. So much power that you swore you could takeoff on one engine. You would take off with the engines 85% flex(max faa certified derated) and still have to pull them back to idle just to keep the aircraft below 200kts otherwise it was a 4000+ VSI climb to your first level off. They are so advanced that you can pull up the Universal Wx that's available in ops, on any one of the 3- FMS's or you could just watch one of the 5 camera's located on the fuselage. Sat Tv, HUD, and from what I understand the new ones have thermal Enhanced vision.

Do you have an option to fly those again if you are furloughed? I wish I had those options!!!!!!!!!!!

I just intervied for a G4 job with a company that has G5(needless to say I am looking, the two types really help). Been there, done that, got the uniform. While I am safe for a little while 3 months to a year. Why wait for the shoe to drop. This industry will never be the same. I am not in it for the 85+ hour months, the endless red eye transcons, or the 4 legs a day, I could go on but you know the deal.

 

[Daedalus]

G4G5:

I'd love to know what your wife thinks about you passing up jetBlue in 2000. I think I already know what your answer will be.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Hmmm... We had Delta personnel handing out surveys to our embarking and debarking passengers at MCO yesterday. There's simply no other acknowledgement of success... Furthermore, as it stands, DirectTV works right now-- and it's great to have 5-600 channels on a G-V but there isn't anything out there for the traveling public except for Frontier and JetBlue's IFE system. It remains to be seen if Song can put a system together before disenfranchising many of its customers. It is going to cost bucks, something an airline like Delta who just cut service by 12% is going to have to justify. I'll hand it to y'all though, at least they're trying!!! BTW, Blueaid tastes great and is less filling...

 

[Ty Webb]

G4G5:

The 717 actually has BR715 engines, which are rated to 21,000 but ours have a chip limiting them to 18,500. In an emergency, we can go through the break bar for a spleen-popping 25,000 lbs per side . . . . . . at typical takeoff weights, that would be a 2:1 thrust-to weight.

We normally do 12% to 18% de-rated takeoffs.

How much thrust and what are some typical takeoff weights for the G5?

Thanks, and best of luck in your job search. You could check with MBNA out of ILG (Money Buys Nearly Anything).

 

[Eagleflip]

Uh, a 2:1 thrust ratio would mean that your "typical takeoff weight" would be 25,000 lbs. Wow...is there an airshow demo planned for the 717 anytime soon?

I think you meant 1:2 TR.

I'm surprised--not at the extra thrust available, but that the 717 typically only weighs about 100 k. Thought it would be heavier than that.

Nice jet though--and Airtran has been great to me on many a commute!

 

[Ty Webb]

Uh, sorry. 50,000 lbs of thrust on a 100K lb airplane. Not enough coffee, must of mixed up my take-aways and my goes-into's.

Typical BOW is around 69K. The MTOW we pay for is is 120,000# although they could be operated heavier.

ATL-MSP you might see 111,000 or so, but on short routes I've seen takeoff weights undeer 90,000 lbs, which is light enough that you have to adjust the ref speeds (so as not to rotate before Vmcg) on a 18% de-rate.

It's a great airplane, but I miss my round dials.

 

[Skank]

G4G5,
Thanks for putting a negative spin on our live tv acquisition. Why don't we just compare last years (last quarter, last month...whatever) results, and leave it at that. Talk is very cheap!

 

[G4G5]

G4G5,
Thanks for putting a negative spin on our live tv acquisition. Why don't we just compare last years (last quarter, last month...whatever) results, and leave it at that. Talk is very cheap!

Please feel free to back up your statement.

What was incorrect?

"Jet Blue had no choice but to go with the purchase of Live TV. Neeleman in an effort to save money went with the lowest bidder. Then when Live TV ran into financial trouble he was caught between a rock and a hard place."

"I am not bashing B6, it was smart for Neeleman to use it as a marketing tool. Techonology advances at such a pace, he had to jump in somewhere. Just don't believe everything you hear from the guy in ops. Take 5 minutes and do the research"

Apology accepted

G5 specs
http://www.wcci.com/profiles/specfiles/gv.pdf

 

[Skank]

I'm fully aware of the relevant terms of the live tv acquisition. I've done the research. No apology is forthcoming, so your acceptance was premature.

Talk is still cheap, so I'll let you do all the talking you want.

 

[JayDub]

When in reality they are competing against the big boys. I had 900+ channels in my G4 and G5 before B6 had their first aircraft. There are plenty of systems and options for all the airlines. Just no money. Once the economy turns who do you think will have a better system, Rockwell Collins with 45% of the market and all of their R&D or Live tv and Jetblue?

G4G5,

You must be a college professor; you did great research and totally missed the "big picture". There is a little something in American business called value. Sure a guy that pays $40 million for a G5 can spend a few extra hundred grand for 875 more channels, but that just wouldn't make sense for people paying $299 one way to the other coast. For what people pay, they get a good value. If you don't believe me, ask them. The problem with main line carriers is they charge more for less service. Who do you think has staying power?

One other point to consider; the whole IFE business is brand new. Live TV has brought a product once reserved for only the wealthiest people to the masses. That is a mighty tall order, and you can't expect not to hit a road bump or two along the way. The MacDonald brothers had no idea of the potential of their product, but Ray Kroc did. Kroc bought them out and dang near went bankrupt doing it. Without his forethought and sacrifice, where would you take your kid for a treat after a perfect report card?

There is just one point I am trying to make and that is you are judging not only a product, but an industry way too early on in it's genesis. It's was great proving you could bring a zillion channels to the wealthiest of individuals while flying, but what is really accomplished in the end? Just hang tight as a useful tool is developed that can be enjoyed by more than a select few.


Respectfully,

JayDub