Is NetJets a career place?

[buttercup]

If it's so bad, why exactly are you at NJA? Let's see how accurate I am: 1) This is the only flying job you've ever had, excluding flying for mommy and daddy's business. 2) You've always wanted to go to a "major," but can't even measure up to JetBlue. 3) You're just generally pissed off at the world (because apparently it owes you something), and a real joy to be around. Close?

You are 0-3 better luck next time.
Never said it was bad just said its not the best, it's better than a commuter but not in the same league as a Major. See that gentleman X-rated post. He is at AWA one of the lesser of the Majors and he still said it is head and shoulders above a fractional racket. As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company out of Teb or Hpn or ISP( I was already offered a job in TEB and declined). I have my own company now and the sense of satisfaction and financial viability is second to none. I enjoy flying professionally but the most fun I ever had flying was flying a 172 into grass strips. I love the work I do in my business because it's mine and I do it on my terms. To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve. I wont be flying professionally much longer but just know that while everyone was flying SAFELY and PROFESSIONALLY i was doing it more focused than most because I care about those here even though i knewI wouldnt be here probably more than another year or two. As for being pleasant to be around that depends. I was never the type to tell people what they wanted to hear, but I am very close with my closest childhood friends to this day and they like being around me. So does my family. Beyond that I could really give a sh*t less.

 

[Seat 0A]

I know a couple days have gone by since I posted the following, but it is a truthful account. Seems that even if you lead some folks to the watering hole you will never be able to make them drink. Some will distort the negatives to the extent necessary to make their argument while overlooking ACTUAL DATA provided by someone on the inside.


Oh well, here it is again, pay close attention to things like length of duty day, length of overnight and actual days worked vs. days AT HOME.......


Here’s another slant on NJA from the perspective of an actual NJA pilot:

I DO NOT commute. I fly from home. My travel is company paid positive space travel and I keep the airline miles. This also means that my first and last days involve very little work. I have elite status on 4 carriers and ride First Class often (remember that I am on duty at this point as well).

We are briefed no later than 7pm the night before day-1 and it cannot change and we cannot be contacted.

I have 3 weeks vacation per year (which is really 9 weeks). I also have 3 weeks of paid training per year so now I am down to “working” 20 tours per year. I could knock this down to 18 tours by using up my sick leave each year.

Now, if you take 18 weeks and conservatively figure 6 days per tour of work (one day less than 7 due to airlines on day-1 and day-7). This is a fair comparison because the airline guys are not counting their commuting days only the duty days.

That equals 108 days of line flying per year or 9 days per month. How does that compare to airlines? Oh yeah, I have 4 weeks vacation at year 10 (actually 12 weeks) that will drop it down even more.

I have never flown more than 450 hours a year here in 6 years.

I am NEVER away from home on my “off” days like many 121 guys are (commuting). If they don’t get me home by the end of my last scheduled day then the economic penalty to the company makes for a VERY nice Xmas at my house. I also “comp off” those hours returned home late from the beginning of my next tour.

Base pay in the neighborhood of $100k at year 5.
If you are young you can look forward to a base pay of $200k (or $240k in the BBJ). I am currently earning another 15-20% over base pay with “normal” overtime. I DO NOT volunteer for any extra but it is there if you want it. Also I AM NOT on the reserve payscale which is a fair amount better.

401k 50% match, insurance fully paid by company, around $8k tax free per-diem in your pocket each year (we don’t buy food here).

We DO NOT stay in Hotels less than Hilton quality and we keep the hotel points too.

10 hours minimum rest begins upon arrival at the HOTEL. Normally it is between 12-16 hours.

We have actual BRIEFED rest. If they shut us down at 4pm today and brief us (yes, they have to brief us before shutdown) for a Noon show tomorrow they CANNOT touch us until Noon tomorrow, no phone calls, etc.

An average day for me is 3-4 legs, 4-5 flight hours, 9-11 duty hours.
Payscales at NJA and the majors are growing towards each other at a fast rate.



Here's the tour I just returned from:

Day1: Airline only, go to hotel (started at 0445L today), 10.5 hours rest
Day2: 3 legs, 9 hours duty, 13 hours rest
Day3: 4 legs, 10.5 hours duty, 14.25 rest
Day4: 1 leg, 10 hours duty, 11 hours rest
Day5: 5 legs, 14 hours duty, 12 hours rest
Day6: 4 legs, 12.25 hours duty, 16 hours rest
Day7: 4 legs, 12.5 hours duty (7.2 hours flight today---the most in one day this tour) and then ferry to my home base and in my house at 2000L.

For the year 2005 I was on duty (including training) for 161 days. I only had 2 weeks vacation last year. I used some sick days to knock out one tour. Of the 161 days I did not fly for 43 of them (training, airline only, etc.). This has me flying the line for 118 days or 9.83 days per month. Pretty close to my example above.

Hey, even if you guys want to figure all 161 of my work days into the discussion, that is still only 13.4 days per month for ALL of my obligations away from home. That works out to about 16.6 days off and actually at home each month.

Again, lets remember that many of the airline folks that may only work 11 or 12 days per month are still doing some travel on THEIR time. Not me.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Most airline guys are flying more than me per month, and I'm in the XL!!!!! If you figure out what they make per month and divide it by the amount of time they spend at work or comutting to and from work I bet you'll find many people at NJA are doing pretty damn well.

Its not all about hard $$$$$.....

 

[netjetwife]

How frustrating to be told by a few that you don't have a career, just a job. There are a few others who say that the NJ pilots are greedy.
It appears that those opinions are coming from the fringe element. Other pilots are applying, the sims are full, and many from NJ have been thanked for raising the bar in the industry. That's a lot of activity/discussion centered around a flying position.

Those who work at "jobs" don't have specialized skills, and they can be replaced quickly with a worker off the street. Career positions require extensive training and experience. Given the number of questions I have read in this forum asking if the mins at NJA are firm, I rather think that settles the issue. Pilots are professionals--period--and as such, they have careers, not jobs. They aren't at fault if it takes some employers longer than others to accept that fact and compensate them accordingly. It's not the uniform that makes the pilot.

Those who seek to improve conditions at the company of their choice are to be respected for upholding professional standards.
Having a career is normal. Fighting for it is much more impressive. Best of luck to those willing to make a stand.
NJW

 

[Ultra Grump]

as214 - Apparently I've wasted my time debating this issue with you. It is impossible to have a meaningful debate if you keep changing your story with each post.

As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company... To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve.

Even in their current state a major airline guy with accrued seniority will get 17-18 days off per month.

I guarantee he has the option to bid his schedule as such to get 17 off after two years if he wants.

If you could get so much time off at a major, and you could be at a major if you wanted to, why aren't you there? Which is it - would a major give you more time off, or NJA?

Nevermind, don't bother answering. I don't really care, and I'm not sure I'd get a straight answer anyway. I've wasted enough time on this with you already.

 

[Hawker dude]

If it's so bad, why exactly are you at NJA? Let's see how accurate I am: 1) This is the only flying job you've ever had, excluding flying for mommy and daddy's business. 2) You've always wanted to go to a "major," but can't even measure up to JetBlue. 3) You're just generally pissed off at the world (because apparently it owes you something), and a real joy to be around. Close?

You are 0-3 better luck next time.
Never said it was bad just said its not the best, it's better than a commuter but not in the same league as a Major. See that gentleman X-rated post. He is at AWA one of the lesser of the Majors and he still said it is head and shoulders above a fractional racket. As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company out of Teb or Hpn or ISP( I was already offered a job in TEB and declined). I have my own company now and the sense of satisfaction and financial viability is second to none. I enjoy flying professionally but the most fun I ever had flying was flying a 172 into grass strips. I love the work I do in my business because it's mine and I do it on my terms. To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve. I wont be flying professionally much longer but just know that while everyone was flying SAFELY and PROFESSIONALLY i was doing it more focused than most because I care about those here even though i knewI wouldnt be here probably more than another year or two. As for being pleasant to be around that depends. I was never the type to tell people what they wanted to hear, but I am very close with my closest childhood friends to this day and they like being around me. So does my family. Beyond that I could really give a sh*t less.

Great, not even a real pilot. Just some dork with an opinion. Question, why are you such an a#$hole? and if you are so rich what the h$% are you doing on this board? Idiot.

 

[Hogprint]

Correction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone throttle back on 214...he just likes to come over from the Corp board and do some NJA bashing for sport! For some reason he's had an axe to grind with us for some time.

I see you and other Corp guys make the point that there are better Corp jobs out there with better bennies and moola. quote]

Thats funny.... I read 214's posts on our board all the time. What Corporation do we let on the IBT message board?

Cease fire! Misfire on my part. Got him confused with H25B. He does some drive by shootings from the corp. Damn, I gotta quit drink'n and typ'n....

 

[gunfyter]

Cease fire! Misfire on my part. Got him confused with H25B. He does some drive by shootings from the corp. dang, I gotta quit drink'n and typ'n....

I think you just hit 214 with the lowest blow he coud take... Don't know how he will recover from being mistaken for h25B... LOL

 

[SCT]

"Great, not even a real pilot. Just some dork with an opinion." HD

Wow, who else fits this statement around here?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Even in their current state a major airline guy with accrued seniority will get 17-18 days off per month. Apples to oranges.

Oh yeah... how much of that 17-18 is spent commuting for most 121 guys? Hmmmmm.

Nectarines to peaches.

 

[buttercup]

A fair amount of Netjets pilots will have to commute in the future and that commute will be more painful and unbearable for them then it will be for an individual with jumpseat privileges. Just tell both sides of the story. The best case scenario for a NJA guy is being presented while the worst case for an airline guy is being presented in the above examples. What about the FedEx or UPS guys who live in base and bid reserve and go one or two months in a row without working and are home with their wife and kids everyday? How about the Major airline guys that live in base and bid day turns or two day trips and have 17 and 18 off? I am truly happy for the HBA guys @ NJA they deserve it for the quality of life and the added time home with their most precious investments their wives and kids. The ones above who are spouting off about not having to commute should just realize that those who come after them will not enjoy the same luxuries that they do. ANd yes I have commuted before so I know what a bit%h it is.

 

[buttercup]

I think you just hit 214 with the lowest blow he coud take... Don't know how he will recover from being mistaken for h25B... LOL

I don't know this H25B fella but the only unbearable blow that I've ever taken is when the most accomplished team in sports history lost a 3-0 lead in the A.L.C.S. to those thugs in Boston.

 

[netjetwife]

I think that it's too soon to say how the Domicile System will turn out. Are they going to be able to attract the experienced pilots that they want? We're already hearing pilots say that it's a show stopper for them. Will they get enough pilots to live in expensive cities for low wages? That's problematic. Will it give them the crew pairing and cost savings they're counting on? That's unknown. Will the pros outweigh the cons? That remains to be seen.

In the meantime, if pilots out there are deciding not to apply because of that restrictive policy, it certainly couldn't hurt to tell NJA that was the deciding factor. My sympathies to all those affected families. I'm sorry that you're having to bear the brunt of what could turn out to be a bad business decision. It certainly wasn't something the pilots wanted.

 

[DO-82 driver]

I'm sorry that you're having to bear the brunt of what could turn out to be a bad business decision. It certainly wasn't something the pilots wanted....NJW

Yet another extremely poor business decision made by our crack management team...Let's think of some others:

- Selling off the core fleet
- Pre-ordered food at the busiest airports for us....the homeless in TEB ate well for a few months becasue of that one.
- Fuel savings program for straight wing planes
- Switching to an inferior uniform provider
- E-Bay and PayPal program (well I guess some people benefitted from this one)
- The 400XP program

Hey, they wanted the Domicile program. I voted for it believing that it would never work long term and the Company would be forced to exercise their options as perscribed in the CBA. Its just too bad we are going to have to pass on alot of really qualified people becasue of it. Let's hope it doesn't take them forever to realize it.

 

[netjetwife]

So let's do a quick, unscientific calculation for the heck of it. How long did it take the company
to realize their folly in the above examples you've so astutely provided us, DO-82?

 

[Hawker dude]

I think that it's too soon to say how the Domicile System will turn out. Are they going to be able to attract the experienced pilots that they want? We're already hearing pilots say that it's a show stopper for them. Will they get enough pilots to live in expensive cities for low wages? That's problematic. Will it give them the crew pairing and cost savings they're counting on? That's unknown. Will the pros outweigh the cons? That remains to be seen.

In the meantime, if pilots out there are deciding not to apply because of that restrictive policy, it certainly couldn't hurt to tell NJA that was the deciding factor. My sympathies to all those affected families. I'm sorry that you're having to bear the brunt of what could turn out to be a bad business decision. It certainly wasn't something the pilots wanted.

Just got an email back from NJA HR saying my friend is hardly competitive with 5000 hours and 2 type ratings. New hire starting dates are out to May. So far they don't seem to have a problem with either one yet. Unless they're giving me BS.

 

[AA717driver]

I think part of the problem is people wanting to go to NJA (or any other year one position at another company) and expecting everything to be sweetness and light.

It's not. Things at any aviation job with a seniority list won't be "great" for a few years. They probably won't even be good. Too many people are expecting the same QOL as the top 10% of the list when they are in the bottom 10%. Everyone wants to come out of Riddle or Purdue or wherever and step into the left seat of a 747 or GV.

NJA's 7/7 schedule is awsome for a newhire. I've worked 18-20 days of reserve in JFK as a newhire. I've worked 3/3 international. (You don't even get turned around before you have to head back.) And, I've done 5 on/2 off on domestic. All while commuting.

I've worked the panel which sucks regardless of pay. All of this happened before the airlines went into the toilet. It wasn't fun. In fact, it didn't really get fun until I upgraded--11 years after I got hired. Pace yourselves.

From the outside, considering what I've experienced, NJA seems like a decent place to spend your career. Anyplace can suck when the music stops and the upgrades slow. That WILL happen to the darlings of today and you'll be stuck making crappy FO pay with no upgrade in sight. It's a roll of the dice.

At least at NJA you won't be stuck sitting in a crashpad in Queens 20 days a month.TC

 

[gunfyter]

Its gotta be a career place now. I just been informed I did not get the job at VLO.

 

[FLYLOW22]

A fair amount of Netjets pilots will have to commute in the future and that commute will be more painful and unbearable for them then it will be for an individual with jumpseat privileges. The ones above who are spouting off about not having to commute should just realize that those who come after them will not enjoy the same luxuries that they do.

Not "spouting" anything. Accepting employment at NJA is a choice. The company was adamant about the domicile issue in negotiations. They wanted their poison pill to use in the next round as negotiation fodder. They got it.

Do I like it? No.

Do I think it will hurt the companies chances of attracting the best talent out there. Oh yes.

Do I want to hear about complaints from newhires becasue they now "MUST" commute because they VOLUNTARILY accepted a job here knowing full well what the rules now are? Nope.

Will I seek to get that language eliminated in the next round? Maybe. It all depends on how bad the company hurts itself trying to bait the fishing pole with this particular worm. I think the value to the company in keeping this tidbit is completely SOFT value (negative pilot emotions and employee control) goods instead of HARD value (cash) goods.

I think the company will try to use the HBA/DOM issue as a bargaining chip in the the future and no matter which side winds this particular issue it is clear that one side will definetely lose.\

Accept employment here at your own risk. Sorry about the Domicile issue guys bu the company wouldn't budge. Pilots NOT taking jobs here will speak more volumes than attacking the pilots who work here now.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Flylow22 - Hear, hear! Well put.

 

[gunfyter]

I don't know this H25B fella but the only unbearable blow that I've ever taken is when the most accomplished team in sports history lost a 3-0 lead in the A.L.C.S. to those thugs in Boston.

I know it really killed me too. Took mucho crap from Red Sux fans. I hear SAT might be getting a baseball team... will partner with the SPURS (Winningest franchise in professional sports over last 8 yrs.).

 

[FL450]

Is NetJets a career place?

Looking at aviation as a whole and weighing the alternative choices available, yes, it is. Or, at least, it's one of the best resting places around until you find a better one.

 

[gunfyter]

The question is: Is Aviation a career anymore?

 

[FL450]

The question is: Is Aviation a career anymore?

OUCH!

(but a valid question)

 

[NJACMH]

The question is: Is Aviation a career anymore?

For pilots at NJA, it's just a job.

I have yet to see or meet a Professional Pilot !

 

[DO-82 driver]

Spoken like a true....(you can fill in the blank)!!!!!

 

[hydrarkt]

Career= Stock options(see Jblu). discounted stock purchase program(swa), retirement not just 401K(see FedEx/UPS) and ability to make over 200K(The benchmark for what 100K was 10 years ago). And yes this is broad based throughout the aviation industry ,there are very few career positions in aviation anymore most are just jobs.

Yeah, stock options are great!! Especially at places like UAL!! oops.. UAL stock is WORTHLESS now.

"Retirement." You mean pension?? Like the majors?? Hmm, let's talk to the pilots from UAL or DAL or NWA or USair and see how secure they are in their pensions. If you've been paying attention at all you'd know that pensions are NOT the way to go. As a matter of fact, NJA has the best 401k package I've seen at ANY company. NJA matches 50% of the first 15% of a pilot's pay. There is also a small retirment stipend depending on service years upon retirement. Could there be more? Yes. But I'll take definate money instead of promised money any day.

Ability to make over $200K?? At NJA, a 10 year pilot in the BBJ program makes a BASE pay of $229,850. With per diem, OT, extended days etc, we're around $250K. Granted that there won't be many in that position but you said "ability to make."

Discounted stock purchase program?? Are you serious?? This is one of your criteria for a "career??" Hell, Home Depot cashiers can buy stock at a discount. Do you consider that a "career?"

I think that you should reevaluate your position. You're living in the past.

 

[Seat 0A]

For pilots at NJA, it's just a job.

I have yet to see or meet a Professional Pilot !

This is about all the proof anyone needs that this person doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground.

I have flown with more pilots than you have "met". Many are respected, life-long former airline pilots that have forgotten more about aviation than you will ever know. They have commented many many times that the pilots here at NJA are some of the best and most professional that they have worked with.

Would you like to take a guess at how they think some of the folks upstairs at CMH compare with those at the majors?

You're opinions now have zero merit or credibility. Not that they ever did.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[gunfyter]

For pilots at NJA, it's just a job.

I have yet to see or meet a Professional Pilot !

Yeah thats right. I am getting a little carried away with a 25 year hobby....

True, You will never be able to do what I can do... and what I have done. But your job is important too. No need to be envious.

 

[Diesel]

People shouldn't think that NJACMH is a representation of the people upstairs at CMH. For all we know it's another pilot just stirring the pot. Just like any pilot group 99 percent of the people are good people doing a great job. Any group has the 1 percent that you just want to push off a cliff.

I still think NJACMH is just a flame starter. Too bad because they give the people upstairs a bad name and instigates bad feelings.