Is it just me...?

[Bluto]

"It would be perfectly legitimate for us to run a war where we destroy rebellious cities and subscribe to a doctrine of total warfare."

Jedi, I couldn't disagree with you more. The primary basis for going to war in Iraq was to remove an evil dictator. Not only would it be far from legititmate for us to wage the kind of war you propose, it would be criminal. Actions like that would put us on a par with folks like Milosevic, Hussein, etc. I'm glad our government and the vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

ps I think the word you were looking for there was "gesture" not jester.

 

[Otto Coarsen]

Reading this millitant, kill em all rhetoric being spewed all over this thread sickens me profusely.

IMO.....Those who believe we should level the Iraqi civilization are as sick as the terrorists who kill innocent Americans. Those who instantly dismiss the images of mistreatment of POWs by American Soldiers with the attitude of "so what" or "they deserve it" are as ignorant as the crowds of people seen burning American flags in the streets hours after the attacks of 9/11. It is unfortunate that in our modern society, with all of our freedoms, all of our diverse exposure to different perspectives of world events, many of us still resort to name calling, sh!t slinging, and perpetuating the perverse notion that we are always right and because of that we can step on whomever we want to prove it. It's a friggin shame there are so many of you out there... It's more of a shame that our commander in chief is also one of you.

I'm a proud American... I served my country as a Marine... I'm not trying to use that to justify my opinion; just using it to demonstrate that despite my background, common sense and open mindedness have appealed to my better judgement.

As for the POW abuse issue, I'm hoping it will bring a more positive outlook on John Kerry's whistleblowing of GI-POW abuse and war crimes during Vietnam. It is the same mentality that I spoke of above that has spun his actions in the 1970s as a negative toward his potential presidency.

 

[:-)]

...............

As for the POW abuse issue, I'm hoping it will bring a more positive outlook on John Kerry's whistleblowing of GI-POW abuse and war crimes during Vietnam. It is the same mentality that I spoke of above that has spun his actions in the 1970s as a negative toward his potential presidency.

You wanna put that in english there ace? Are you saying that John "flip-flop" Kerry's admitted wartime attrocities were in some way positive? But I guess it really doesn't matter, the Democrat/media machine spent the entire Clinton administration telling us that Vietnam service didn't matter. No, I almost forgot, JFlipflopK keeps telling us that he went to Nam, I guess it must matter.

Have you heard Kerry admit to burning villages, etc? How many villages did you burn while serving as a Marine?


"None", that's what I thought. But it seems that you defend a man who besmirches most all Nam vets when he paints broadly about attrocities.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...a jester of our goodwill.

Does that mean we have to wear curly shoes and hats with bells on them?

Originally posted by AvisVDP
Nobody even died...

Apparently, that may not be true. They're now saying that some of these soldiers might be charged with rape and/or murder.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Reading this millitant, kill em all rhetoric being spewed all over this thread sickens me profusely.

Bluto
Jedi, I couldn't disagree with you more. The primary basis for going to war in Iraq was to remove an evil dictator. Not only would it be far from legititmate for us to wage the kind of war you propose, it would be criminal. Actions like that would put us on a par with folks like Milosevic, Hussein, etc. I'm glad our government and the vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

Wars are fought at the lowest common demonator. WW2 on the Western European front was fairly civil (other than the civilian bombing). The Eastern European front during WW2 was war with genocide on the side. I can give more examples if you wish but you get the idea.

There are lines that the sides draw up during wartime that aren't crossed. I don't think that anyone knows where those lines are yet in this war. We may not know where they are until the war is over and historians can look over the whole war.

Bluto, I respect your viewpoint but you have to keep in mind that the US AF killed more civilians in WW2 than Milosevic or Hussein ever did. A single Ohio submarine crewed by 154 men can kill more innocents than Hitler and rival the number killed by Mao or Stalin. In my mind, it doesn't matter how many people die in the battle, it is what you are fighting for that makes it worth while.

9/11 was a gauntlet thrown down for many in the US, either submit or fight. We decided to fight and if we continue to think that our way of life is worth fighting for, we will have to continue to be willing to pay any cost.

War is very much a blank check, you can't know the full cost in advance.

 

[Singlecoil]

These acts have made our country weaker and have damaged our national security. In the first Gulf War, thousands of Iraqis surrendered and there were no reports of abuse. What will our future enemies decide when they are faced with the prospect of surrender or fighting to the death after these acts of prisoner abuse?

Why are we in Iraq, Jedi_Cheese? You don't think this has to do with 9/11 do you? Even the president says the Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11. You guys are promoting razing entire cities in order to save them? Sounds like another war in our not too distant past.

The real question is: How many more people are now taking up arms against us as a result of our barbaric actions? The Iraqis have known about this for months, which is roughly how long ago the fighting got more costly for U.S. troops. Why do a majority of Iraqis view us a occupiers?

Even Karl Rove knows how bad this is.

 

[EagleRJ]

This "scandal" is much ado about nothing. The best place to look for input is the reaction of the Arab media. When Saddam, Uday, and Qusay were raping, beheading, disemboweling, electrocuting, and grinding up their opponents by the thousands, what was the reaction of people in the Arab world? Zip. Now five or six US soldiers out of 150,000 put some prisoners in humiliating positions, and the Arabs are going crazy(er).

Hypocrites.

If it comes out that Iraqi prisoners were killed during interrogation, either deliberately or accidentally, I'm actually OK with that too. If that's what is necessary to extract information that will save lives in Iraq or the US, that's the price of war.

 

[eddie]

Would you people be talking like that if you were in a position that might put you in the hands of these Iraqis?

As Americans, who entered this country to LIBERATE these people, we are morally required to take the high road. I am in shock that so many of you think this is no problem...we wouldn't stand for the humiliation, rape, and beatings of our POWs.

Why is this ok with you?

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

This "scandal" is much ado about nothing. The best place to look for input is the reaction of the Arab media. When Saddam, Uday, and Qusay were raping, beheading, disemboweling, electrocuting, and grinding up their opponents by the thousands, what was the reaction of people in the Arab world? Zip. Now five or six US soldiers out of 150,000 put some prisoners in humiliating positions, and the Arabs are going crazy(er).

Hypocrites.

If it comes out that Iraqi prisoners were killed during interrogation, either deliberately or accidentally, I'm actually OK with that too. If that's what is necessary to extract information that will save lives in Iraq or the US, that's the price of war.

Nice post.

 

[sqwkvfr]

the Arabs are going crazy(er). .

This is something that I hear a lot. What the "Arab street" thinks or will think about something or how the "Arab Street" will react to this or that.

The mainstream media tosses this phrase around like the "Arab Street" is a nest full of mindless, angry hornets that are gonna attack if we walk to close.

I think this charactarization is simplistic and racist. These people are smart and I think most people on the "Arab street" are gonna see this for what it is.

Another part of the media's reporting that I find suspect is how after Saddam was ousted, so many Iraqis were almost immediately unhappy with the lack of government services available to them.

Uh, What? How did people who lived for so many decades under a brutal dictactor so quickly become so Americanized that they thought reconstruction and, for that matter, construction was a "McDonald's drive-thru-quick" operation? I had a hard time believing that people, most of whom had NEVER been free, had to have it all NOW, as the mainstream media was reporting.

 

[Bluto]

Jedi,
I agree with the sentiment that: 'War is very much a blank check, you can't know the full cost in advance.' This is why we shouldn't consider military action as a political solution until all other solutions have been exhausted. In this case, I feel there were other options available and we chose not to take them.

Regardless, however, we are occupying Iraq. We are the government there. The upcoming "transfer of sovereignty" is a joke and everyone knows it. How sovereign can a nation be with a massive foreign military force running the country? As such, we as a nation have a responsibility to rule in a just and moral manner until (if?) we leave, whenever that may be.

Your attempted justification of current war atrocities based on past mistakes concerns me. I strongly believe that we as a nation are continually growing and improving morally. In the past, our actions have been far from ideal. We have to continually expect better of our leaders.

You said, "In my mind, it doesn't matter how many people die in the battle, it is what you are fighting for that makes it worth while." I disagree. Until people can learn to mourn the loss of a single life, be it Iraqi, Afghani, American, or any nationality we can never put war in its true perspective. There must be an accounting. What are we fighting for? Why are we sacrificing our own nation's sons and daughters as well as those of innocent Iraqis? Is it worth it?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Jedi,
I agree with the sentiment that: 'War is very much a blank check, you can't know the full cost in advance.' This is why we shouldn't consider military action as a political solution until all other solutions have been exhausted. In this case, I feel there were other options available and we chose not to take them.

Regardless, however, we are occupying Iraq. We are the government there. The upcoming "transfer of sovereignty" is a joke and everyone knows it. How sovereign can a nation be with a massive foreign military force running the country? As such, we as a nation have a responsibility to rule in a just and moral manner until (if?) we leave, whenever that may be.

Your attempted justification of current war atrocities based on past mistakes concerns me. I strongly believe that we as a nation are continually growing and improving morally. In the past, our actions have been far from ideal. We have to continually expect better of our leaders.

You said, "In my mind, it doesn't matter how many people die in the battle, it is what you are fighting for that makes it worth while." I disagree. Until people can learn to mourn the loss of a single life, be it Iraqi, Afghani, American, or any nationality we can never put war in its true perspective. There must be an accounting. What are we fighting for? Why are we sacrificing our own nation's sons and daughters as well as those of innocent Iraqis? Is it worth it?

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

Hitler sent his troops into the Rhineland in 1936. Had France responded with armed forces, there would be several million more people alive today. The war would have been over in a few months as a decisive French victory. Instead France tried a diplomatic move, and eventually ended up declaring war 3 years later.

Sometimes it is better to go to war initially than continue negociating for a few years and then eventually go to war. With those who you will go to war against, they don't respect your attempts at peace and will only make you weaker and themselves stronger while they negociate. I think that the forces that have lined up against us in this war are beyond negociating with. How do you negociate with someone that only wants you dead, even if it would cost them their own life?

You talk about wasting Iraqi and Afghan lives. Our goverment is supposed to have one thing in mind, the continued welfare of the US and it's citizens. If the Iraqi or Afghan goverments (or the people fighting in their territory) care about the people in their country, they should do what is best for the people there. The US should try to limit civilian casualties, but that doesn't give us the main burden of limiting them. I don't see the Iraqi rebellion doing this, and thus I don't care much when innocent bystanders get attacked. If you use human shields, I think it is permissable to shoot through those human shields to kill our enemies.

 

[7B2]

I think most of us will/can agree on maybe the following statement:

Shoot/ kill/ bomb the enemy while you are at war fighting, but once you've captured a pow he/she deserves a fair treatment by the Geneva Convention.

So, what I'm trying to say is that, war is war and there is nothing fair about it, untill you have a pow without weapons to kill you.

You can't just say: they did/do it to us, so therefore it becomes justified.

I'm just glad we live in a country where you may actually say your opinion, even if it is not what other people like to hear or agree with.

 

[ThomasR]

A reminder: over thirty-five hundred American men, women, and children have died so far in this "war on terror." We are fighting people who think nothing of subjecting prisoners to the most excruciating forms of torture.

Am I really the only guy out here who doesn't give a fart about embarassing photos taken of Iraqi prisoners?

I didn't read all the posts to this expression so I might be reitterating the sentiment; it is not the FACT that people torture each other, however, it is such a repuslive expression of hatred that we lose control of our perspective.