Is Delta going to Furlough?

[skykid]

I was on the golf course with GG last week. He just said "shut up and give me a wedge".

I golfed with him this morning. He told me he wanted a wedgie. Are you sure you heard right?

 

[Networ-King]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you guys kill me.


Next time GG ask for a wedge, well....... you give it to him. RIGHT OVER THE HEAD .

THEN RRRRRRUUUUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!!

 

[Sky Cowboy]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

So there it is in a nut shell. Management won't have to furlough because DALPA will sacrifice its' young willingly and eagerly.

It is really quite academic when viewed at the macro level. Historically no legacy carrier has ever gone bankrupt and not furloughed pilots. Adding to that, in light the current pension crisis, DALPA is desperate to give away what little negotiating collateral it has left to save the golden calf. The furloughed pilots will be the first thing they will throw under the bus hoping to give the wheels traction. Unfortunately, the wheels have fallen off the wagon at Delta.

As one MEC member told me personally, "DALPA will not gut our contract over just one issue," that being job protection. While that is certainly true for the pilots already on the street as well as those about to be re-furloughed, we shall see what the fight yeilds with respect to the pension. I suspect we will be flying for similar pay rates and work rules as UAL. Sadly their sacrifice did not save their pension.

I suspect that DALPA will give away everything and more waging a pointless battle. UAL and US Air have already paved the road to the PBGC. The only thing that can save us now is Congressional reform, which most likely will come too little, too late. Unfortunately Congress has pushed this issue to the back burner while it passes legislation for Hurricane Katrina relief.

Like the line in "The Right Stuff" so aptly put it... "Funding makes those birds fly. No bucks. No Buck Rogers." It ain't rocket science. High fuel prices and low fares cannot be overcome by charity from labor.

 

[General Lee]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

So there it is in a nut shell. Management won't have to furlough because DALPA will sacrifice its' young willingly and eagerly.

It is really quite academic when viewed at the macro level. Historically no legacy carrier has ever gone bankrupt and not furloughed pilots. Adding to that, in light the current pension crisis, DALPA is desperate to give away what little negotiating collateral it has left to save the golden calf. The furloughed pilots will be the first thing they will throw under the bus hoping to give the wheels traction. Unfortunately, the wheels have fallen off the wagon at Delta.

As one MEC member told me personally, "DALPA will not gut our contract over just one issue," that being job protection. While that is certainly true for the pilots already on the street as well as those about to be re-furloughed, we shall see what the fight yeilds with respect to the pension. I suspect we will be flying for similar pay rates and work rules as UAL. Sadly their sacrifice did not save their pension.

I suspect that DALPA will give away everything and more waging a pointless battle. UAL and US Air have already paved the road to the PBGC. The only thing that can save us now is Congressional reform, which most likely will come too little, too late. Unfortunately Congress has pushed this issue to the back burner while it passes legislation for Hurricane Katrina relief.

Like the line in "The Right Stuff" so aptly put it... "Funding makes those birds fly. No bucks. No Buck Rogers." It ain't rocket science. High fuel prices and low fares cannot be overcome by charity from labor.

The pensions are gone. Bye bye. And that is huge compared to the guys at NW who never had that 50% lump sum option. They will sacrifice their young over there. Over here, we will flush the rest of it down the toilet. And, we are now a young pilot group--less than 400 guys over 50. The old timers won't be able to win the majority this time.... (I am a young 40)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dtfl]

For what it is worth Mr. Grinstein said to me personally that HE would not furlough and that HE will respect the current PWA to include SLOA #45 (the PRP Agreement) and furloughed pilot job protections contained therein. Mr. Grinstein also said that the decision was not up to him but rather A.) the bankruptcy judge, and more importantly B.) DALPA, who by the way in Mr. Grinstein's opinion "will allow furloughs" as part of the soon-to-ongoing concessionary discussions.

Inetersting. I hate to say it but I see this in the future - DALPA denying this...and then it happening. Maybe I am just jaded.
Anyone posted this on the DALPA boards to see what the MEC folks have to say?

 

[Spooky 1]

The pensions are gone. Bye bye. And that is huge compared to the guys at NW who never had that 50% lump sum option. They will sacrifice their young over there. Over here, we will flush the rest of it down the toilet. And, we are now a young pilot group--less than 400 guys over 50. The old timers won't be able to win the majority this time.... (I am a young 40)

Bye Bye--General Lee

So General, how would you change things in the future. What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

Not flamming, just curious as it looks like most of us are out of ideas that really work.

 

[michael707767]

What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

.

I'll take a shot at that. First of all, I would terminate the pension. Even if we get 20 year relief on making catch up payments, the underfunded state of our pension is a huge amount of money in the future. Along with the fact that two of our legacies competitors, along with all the LCC competition, do not have pensions. Hard to compete when you still have one.

As too the older/senior guys, well frankly any of them who could have retired and did not (barring unusual circumstances) is a fool. For many of them, They could have retired, taken a sizeable lump sum, and not worried about door number two. As it turns out, door number two could be worse than we imagined. Just getting the qualified vs non qualified money could be worse than having the whole thing terminated for many pilots. And now they won't even get the lump.

 

[General Lee]

So General, how would you change things in the future. What do you think needs to be done right away to get the D back on track from a DALPA point of view? How did the older/senior guys miss these oportunities given what you know now to be the truth?

Not flamming, just curious as it looks like most of us are out of ideas that really work.

Well, I agree with Michael707767 that we ditch the pensions. $10.6 billion in obligations on our backs is quite heavy. We allowed most of the pilots who could qualify the opportunity to take half of it and be done. As far as the pensions for the rest of the workforce, well, I believe all were offered early out retirement--even the stews. A lot of the management people left early.

Then, I would try to get rid of the older, more expensive workforce. We shed 2500 of our senior pilots, and that means younger (longevity wise---years of service) pilots are now flying larger airplanes, for lower rates (a recently recalled pilot just got the 767-400 in LA)--saving Delta money. The Stews are a problem, though. They are our front line for customers, and they aren't really leaving. If they need to furlough (which they probably will--since we are parking 15% of the planes and they didn't have a mass exodus like the pilots) the younger ones with less seniority will be gone. That leaves the older, more jaded stews to be miserable. We need them to leave, but there is no age 60 rule, so either make the schedules tougher or offer more retirement programs. We have 14,000 stews, all making more than any LCC stew because they have 30 years plus. We need the cheaper, younger, more enthusiastic stew.

Then, I would invest more in advertising that isn't corny. I would add more Song flights, and bring that cost down to LCC costs. IF that means make it a seperate pilot category, then that should happen. Give them 30-40 minute turns, and more productive trips. You could make up the pay difference by making the trips 26 hours in 4 days, and making the lines worth 89 hours--but with the same number of days off.

I would try to lease from GE (our major creditor) some new 100 seaters, and put them on medium sized city pairings from ATL and JFK. The rates would likely mirror Jetblues lower rates, but that is the new benchmark, so there you go. Give them qicker turn times (30 minutes) and make the trips productive too.

As for the feed, they are really a vendor, and should be treated like one. They will either perform, or be gone. We don't pay for extra fuel prices (a la Ron Reber at SkyWest)--nope. Everyone pays for increases. That is too bad if you have to cut elsewhere. No more--"We are regionals and we are doing so well when the majors aren't".....I wonder why?

We need to fly to places that LCCs don't go to. We are adding JFK to Kiev, and will announce ATL--CPH here soon I believe. That is how you add revenue. But, we still need good feed domestically to fill those seats. You can't abandon everything domestically.


Those are some of the basic ideas. Get rid of some debt, cut costs a la pay cuts, renegotiate the leases, add some new 100 seaters, expand Song, add some advertising that isn't corny, treat the feed like vendors, and fly to cities not covered by LCCs. Those are some ideas that probably a lot of people have. I hope some of it comes to fruition.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Spooky 1]

I'll take a shot at that. First of all, I would terminate the pension. Even if we get 20 year relief on making catch up payments, the underfunded state of our pension is a huge amount of money in the future. Along with the fact that two of our legacies competitors, along with all the LCC competition, do not have pensions. Hard to compete when you still have one.

As too the older/senior guys, well frankly any of them who could have retired and did not (barring unusual circumstances) is a fool. For many of them, They could have retired, taken a sizeable lump sum, and not worried about door number two. As it turns out, door number two could be worse than we imagined. Just getting the qualified vs non qualified money could be worse than having the whole thing terminated for many pilots. And now they won't even get the lump.

Not sure about the lump. Sounds like you might get it right up until they formally make a motion to terminate it in BK court, which I don't think has happened as of this date. Having said that, I would not want to be waiting for the postman any time soon.

Your solution would cost me a lot of money but I suspect that it's out of either of our hands so I won't hold it against you. If Delta fails now or sometime during the next couple of years makes little difference in my future, other than a few passes. Hope you enjoy flying the 767ER to Europe. To bad you won't be able to afford a beer or glass of wine when you get there.

 

[michael707767]

Your solution would cost me a lot of money but I suspect that it's out of either of our hands so I won't hold it against you. If Delta fails now or sometime during the next couple of years makes little difference in my future, other than a few passes. Hope you enjoy flying the 767ER to Europe. To bad you won't be able to afford a beer or glass of wine when you get there.

I don't disagree. Terminating the pension is going to cost a lot of people money. But, lets face facts, we are all going to lose money. Only question now is how much.

Look the termination or not of the pension is out of our hands. Do you really think we could give enough to make a difference? On a pension that is underfunded by BILLIONS? We could fly for free and still not influence that decision. All that would happen if we try to save it is we end up with a lower contract and they terminate, or not, anyway.

 

[Juvat]

Is Delta going to furlough?


Is a frog's butt watertight?

 

[General Lee]

Is Delta going to furlough?


Is a frog's butt watertight?

Good one. As far as furloughs at Delta, I hope not. Having 2500 pilots leave in a little more than a year when normally 125 guys retire can help the situation. Sure, we will park 15% of the planes, but we only called back 10 guys a month when we were retiring 200. Hopefully we won't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Good one. As far as furloughs at Delta, I hope not. Having 2500 pilots leave in a little more than a year when normally 125 guys retire can help the situation. Sure, we will park 15% of the planes, but we only called back 10 guys a month when we were retiring 200. Hopefully we won't.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Most of those 2500 are already accounted for. You say the latest bid already accounts for a reduction of 75 aircraft. That seems impossible. 10 pilots an airplane is way higher than the 300-400 picking up flying as contractors. If you park 50 or more planes '05-'06 the situation will change drastically. I hope you don't.

What is the plan to achieve the reduction at CVG?? What planes are getting sold for that reduction?

 

[FDJ2]

General,

Most of those 2500 are already accounted for.

Already accounted for? Would that accounting include the 200 retirements 3 weeks ago and the stragglers heading for the door the end of this month? What about nearly 200 PRPs still on the property, are they also accounted for? DAL is already short, even with PBS. Pilot furloughs are not a foregone conclussion at this point, but still a possibility.

You say the latest bid already accounts for a reduction of 75 aircraft. That seems impossible.

Supposedly there will be a bid coming out in Oct., which will cover the spring schedule. My crystal ball will be much clearer on the subject by then.

What is the plan to achieve the reduction at CVG?? What planes are getting sold for that reduction?

About 100 RJ flights will be cancelled and about 26 mainline flights. I hope that helps answer your question.

 

[General Lee]

Hey look, I was correct

Delta Offers Customers New U.S. - Scandinavia Link with Daily Service to Denmark as Part of Ongoing International Expansion
Wednesday September 21, 12:00 pm ET
The Number one U.S. airline across the Atlantic will offer customers non-stop flights between Atlanta and Copenhagen in April 2006

ATLANTA, Sept. 21, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Just as the world's longest auto and railway span -- the Oresund Bridge -- now joins Denmark and Sweden, next April Delta Air Lines (NYSE:DAL - News) will provide international travelers with a new direct connection between the United States and Scandinavia. Beginning April 3, 2006, Delta will offer the only daily non-stop service between Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport and Copenhagen, Denmark, as part of its ongoing international expansion to global destinations.

Copenhagen derives its name from the Danish words for 'merchant's harbor,' and today the city remains a center of commerce for Scandinavia and Northern Europe as well as a bustling cruise port,'' said Jorge Fernandez, Delta's vice president of International and Alliances. ``With Delta's new non-stop flight to Denmark's capital, we will offer customers 17 daily non-stop destinations between our largest hub and Europe alone, with more soon to come. Atlanta truly is Delta's gateway to the world.''

``The new Copenhagen-Atlanta route is the first scheduled service ever between Scandinavia and the southern United States,'' said Niels Boserup, CEO - Copenhagen Airports. ``A growing number of Americans visit Copenhagen, and at the same time more Scandinavians are traveling to the U.S. With this route they will have new opportunities, and more people will be encouraged to travel across the Atlantic.''

Customers will enjoy the comfort of widebody aircraft on Delta's new flight between Atlanta and Copenhagen, and be able to experience the carrier's award-winning BusinessElite(TM) service. These new flights also bring added convenience and travel options for business and leisure travelers from Scandinavia, along with multiple opportunities for freight forwarders and cargo shippers.

With its upcoming fall and winter schedule, Delta will add to the 21 new international routes already introduced or announced since Jan. 1, 2005, including New York (JFK) to Chennai, India (via Paris); New York (JFK) to Berlin; Atlanta to Moscow; and Atlanta to Dusseldorf, Germany, to name just a few. These schedule enhancements maintain Delta's position as the number one airline across the Atlantic as well as a leading carrier to Latin America.

Delta's new daily non-stop service between Atlanta and Copenhagen beginning April 3, 2006(b): Flight Departs Arrives 68 Atlanta at 6 p.m. Copenhagen at 9 a.m. (following day) 69 (a) Copenhagen at 11 a.m. Atlanta at 2:55 p.m. (a) Flight begins April 4 (b) Subject to Danish government approval

Copenhagen Airport is the largest airport in Scandinavia and serves more than 19 million passengers annually.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Will this help?

Delta Strengthens Winter Schedule with More Flight Choices from Hubs, Expanded Point-to-Point Service in Northeast and New International Destinations
Wednesday September 21, 6:00 am ET
Changes Continue Momentum of Network Redesign

ATLANTA, Sept. 21, 2005 (PRIMEZONE) -- Delta Air Lines' (NYSE:DAL - News) customers will enjoy increased non-stop access to regional business destinations, new point-to-point flying in key Northeast business markets, and expanded international service to Mexico as part of the airline's ongoing transformation to be more efficient and customer-focused. The changes, which begin as early as Dec. 1, support previously announced plans to strengthen Delta's domestic hubs and grow international schedules this winter.

The ongoing transformation of our network responds to customers' preferences for increased non-stop access to growing business destinations and expands Delta's presence on popular international routes,'' said Glen Hauenstein, executive vice president and chief of network and revenue management. ``This winter's changes, coupled with previous moves like right-sizing capacity at Cincinnati and de-hubbing service at Dallas/Fort Worth, represent the aggressive steps Delta is taking to increase the productivity and efficiency of our airline while at the same time improving service for customers.''

Increased non-stop service to regional business destinations

By December, Delta will expand service between its Atlanta and Salt Lake City hubs and key regional business destinations with new non-stop flights to 20 markets. In addition to previously announced service to destinations such as Bloomington and Moline, Ill., new non-stop routes from Atlanta will include Madison and Green Bay, Wis., Burlington, Vt., and Springfield, Mo. These new flights will be effective Dec. 1 and operated by Delta Connection carrier Atlantic Southeast Airlines.

Meanwhile, from Salt Lake City, Delta and Delta Connection carrier Shuttle America will add non-stop service to another five destinations in addition to four destinations previously announced. The new destinations include Cleveland, Ohio and Memphis, Tenn. (effective Nov. 1); Nashville, Tenn. and Hartford, Conn. (effective Dec. 1) and new Saturday-only service to New York's LaGuardia Airport (effective Dec. 3).

New point-to-point choices in the Northeast

Also in December, Delta customers in the Northeastern United States will gain non-stop access between two of the region's most popular business destinations -- Boston and Baltimore -- with six daily round-trip flights operated by Delta Connection carrier Comair. The new flights, effective Dec. 1, add to the already-extensive non-stop service Delta offers between Boston and cities across the Northeast, including Delta's popular Shuttle service to New York-LaGuardia and non-stop service to 15 destinations operated by Delta Connection carriers Comair and Chautauqua, including the only non-stop service to Fredericton and Halifax, Canada.

Expanded international service

As previously announced, Delta's winter schedule will add to customers' choices for travel around the globe with new or expanded service to 41 international destinations.

In Mexico, Delta will continue its expansion with new or expanded non-stop flights between Cozumel and Atlanta, Cozumel and Los Angeles, and Cozumel and Salt Lake City -- all effective March 5, 2006; and will expand service between Atlanta and Mexico City, and Atlanta and Cancun, beginning Dec. 1. With this expansion, Delta will offer customers 20 daily flights to seven destinations in Mexico. In addition, Delta has applied to the Department of Transportation for authority to operate service from Atlanta to Merida, from Orlando and Los Angeles to Cancun, and from New York-JFK to Cozumel, Cabo San Lucas, Acapulco and Puerto Vallarta, and from Cincinnati to Cabo San Lucas.

Delta's ongoing international expansion adds to the dozens of new international routes introduced or announced since Jan. 1, 2005, including New York (JFK) to Chennai, India (via Paris); New York (JFK) to Berlin, Germany; Atlanta to Moscow; New York (JFK) and Atlanta to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic; Atlanta to Barbados; Salt Lake City to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, and Atlanta to Dusseldorf, Germany. This growth supports Delta's overall network strategy to expand international service in response to increased customer demand and maintains Delta's position as the No.1 U.S. carrier across the Atlantic and as a leading carrier to Latin America and the Caribbean.



Hey, what's with the new Comair 5 daily CRJ flights from BOS to BWI? AA Eagle and Airtran both already fly that route. I guess they need to use more gates at our Boston gateway... what a waste IMO. Who knows?



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

Well, I agree with Michael707767 that we ditch the pensions. $10.6 billion in obligations on our backs is quite heavy. We allowed most of the pilots who could qualify the opportunity to take half of it and be done. As far as the pensions for the rest of the workforce, well, I believe all were offered early out retirement--even the stews. A lot of the management people left early.

Then, I would try to get rid of the older, more expensive workforce. We shed 2500 of our senior pilots, and that means younger (longevity wise---years of service) pilots are now flying larger airplanes, for lower rates (a recently recalled pilot just got the 767-400 in LA)--saving Delta money. The Stews are a problem, though. They are our front line for customers, and they aren't really leaving. If they need to furlough (which they probably will--since we are parking 15% of the planes and they didn't have a mass exodus like the pilots) the younger ones with less seniority will be gone. That leaves the older, more jaded stews to be miserable. We need them to leave, but there is no age 60 rule, so either make the schedules tougher or offer more retirement programs. We have 14,000 stews, all making more than any LCC stew because they have 30 years plus. We need the cheaper, younger, more enthusiastic stew.

Then, I would invest more in advertising that isn't corny. I would add more Song flights, and bring that cost down to LCC costs. IF that means make it a seperate pilot category, then that should happen. Give them 30-40 minute turns, and more productive trips. You could make up the pay difference by making the trips 26 hours in 4 days, and making the lines worth 89 hours--but with the same number of days off.

I would try to lease from GE (our major creditor) some new 100 seaters, and put them on medium sized city pairings from ATL and JFK. The rates would likely mirror Jetblues lower rates, but that is the new benchmark, so there you go. Give them qicker turn times (30 minutes) and make the trips productive too.

As for the feed, they are really a vendor, and should be treated like one. They will either perform, or be gone. We don't pay for extra fuel prices (a la Ron Reber at SkyWest)--nope. Everyone pays for increases. That is too bad if you have to cut elsewhere. No more--"We are regionals and we are doing so well when the majors aren't".....I wonder why?

We need to fly to places that LCCs don't go to. We are adding JFK to Kiev, and will announce ATL--CPH here soon I believe. That is how you add revenue. But, we still need good feed domestically to fill those seats. You can't abandon everything domestically.


Those are some of the basic ideas. Get rid of some debt, cut costs a la pay cuts, renegotiate the leases, add some new 100 seaters, expand Song, add some advertising that isn't corny, treat the feed like vendors, and fly to cities not covered by LCCs. Those are some ideas that probably a lot of people have. I hope some of it comes to fruition.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Holy Crap GL.......

That was pretty well thought out, intelligent, and made a lot of sense!!! I often think even I could do a better job running an airline ---- but, I nominate you instead!!

 

[General Lee]

Holy Crap GL.......

That was pretty well thought out, intelligent, and made a lot of sense!!! I often think even I could do a better job running an airline ---- but, I nominate you instead!!

I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. I don't have all of the answers, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (no more Westin's thanks to Chap 11).

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TexaSWA]

Maybe they'd even paint one in the original paintjobs that Delta used on the 9's (with the sideways Widget). That would be sexy.

Would everyone please refrain from describing airplanes as "sexy".

-Thank you