Is Colgan going to be IBT?

[Axel]

747 is on the job

The below is copied from another bulletin board. Names and details edited to protect the innocent(?)

I just got a letter from the Local that says:

[xxx] wrote:

I have confirmed with [yyy, title] that all monies have been paid to the pilots as a result of the settlement reached following the arbitration ... Therefore, the Union hereby withdraws the above referenced grievance without prejudice or precedent.

I understood that we won that grievance. As a matter of fact I know we won it because I was there. This begs the question: "Why did we even discuss, much less enter into a settlement agreement when we won the arbitration?"

This is not gray; it is black and white. Or rather it was at one point: We win, pay up and yes an arbitration decision does set precedent.

I wonder what facet of our unconditional victory (aside from the precedent) we gave away in order for the company to simply pay up when they lost. I have sent an e-mail to [xxx] asking for a copy of the settlement.

And by giving away the precedent, we may well see [this happen] again. I had so much fun fighting it out the first time I am positively salivating at the prospect of doing it all over.

Can't wait for that new contract. I hope for all our sakes it is capable of enforcing itself.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

One has to have national support..... the IBT was taking 2MM from the NJA pilots providing no value.

The NJA pilots going solo will have pros and cons...







Either you know or not. Shouldn't you know your facts as you chide me for not knowing below...

I say not... but I am not pushing the IBT...






What type of lobbying?





You are saying ALPA isn't as good as IBT and you don't know? Know your facts?





Not a damn thing? Wow... this is a global economy and global aviation market place.... If you want to believe you can create a local bubble and not be effected by by what is going internationally, then go for it... but don't be surprised as the changes keep coming..





More pilots are represented by ALPA. the numbers speak...





Well you agree on unions in principle... the more experience one has the more effective one can be...





Do you know why AMR pilots left ALPA? Either you do or don't.




Thanks for the personal insults... real pro of you...

I don't care what union we have or what its called. However we do need to be under one union. That is were the effectiveness is...

The IBT has other issues... they are not pilot dedicated...



Once again... I don't love ALPA... in fact I am frustrated with ALPA as much as the next guy...

I don't think the IBT is all bad... I just think they have other labor groups to worry about and when pilots have issues the truckdrivers think pilots are prima donnas. The IBT aviation division doesn't match what ALPA can do, despite the new guy..

That's all I'll say. This isn't my decision and quite frankly I'm glad I don't have to make it, I wouldn't look forward to the research involved to make an EDUCATED decision instead of one based on people who don't know all the facts on this message board.

fair enough...[/quote]


You argue like a child, Rez. You are in love with ALPA, it's obvious. Good for you. Your arguments are VERY weak, however. You speak with a moderate intelligence regarding ALPA, but with an obvious LACK of intelligence regarding the Teamsters, making your argument very unsupportive and one-sided. You also say "I'm pushing the IBT" - another reading comprehension issue. I specifically said I was not pushing either union. You also ask uneducated questions, such as "what type of lobbying"? Well obviously the type that worked and got the job done.

Go fix ALPA. They definitely need some fixing, but you are so in love with them that you are blind to the truth, which means you won't help them at all. If ALPA is so great why does it need your help fixing it? What is it you think YOU are doing to fix it? (besides pushing for people to pay their dues to ALPA?)

If you are a Colgan pilot you would be foolish to not even look at the teamsters. Both have their pro's and con's and you need to make an educated decision. As I stated, I haven't made my own decision regarding what would be best for that pilot group, but if I were a pilot there, I'd definitely be doing some digging and not relying on jokers on this message board, and to just assume that "ALPA or nothing" is a foolish opinion, as it is very obvious to me that ALPA is not for everyone (if it was, why would very large carriers such as AA or just recently US Air kick their asses out?).

Pilots should make educated decisions, and this stuff's very important. Maybe ALPA is the one. Maybe they aren't. That's all I said.

OK, go worship ALPA again now, Rez.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

What did the Chautaqua Teamsters do for Shuttle America?

How many pilots were at Chataqua vs. Shuttle America at the time? Hmm. How many pilots are at Pinnacle vs. Colgan? You think the same thing doesn't happen at ALPA carriers?

You can never really make a true comparison between anyone in this industry. Horizon has what they have because ACA and Comair had just signed big contracts just before them.

Hmm. You don't know what you're talking about. I happen to have a very good friend who was involved there and live in Horizon country. Horizon mgmnt and their pilots had one of the most adversarial relationships in the business. It was through their solidarity that they got the contract they got. ComAir set the bar and Horizon beat it. So I don't see your point.

NetJets is not a regional and should not be compared to one. Their customers have an excess of money, thats why they can charter their own flight and not have to airline it.

Yeah, you can believe that if you want. They are a pilot group who fall under the RLA but believe that if you want. You're right in one regard, they are WAY above any regional's pay scales and most majors in many ways and benefits now. And if you knew what it was like before their strong leadership, and the sh!tty contract they had before their new teamster contract you wouldn't think they were so unrelated.

Ultimately, the measure of a Union's success can be measured from the willingness of their management group to deal fairly with their employees and their timing of negotiations in the marketplace.

Or lack thereof.

SWA's pilot union is not the powerhouse that their working agreement would suggest. They got a fair deal at the time the deal was struck and then the industry fell down around them. The same can be said for Horizon.

Uh, no. SWA's pilots have ALWAYS had a great relationship with their management. SWA knows how to treat its employees. That's why SWA has not needed ALPA.

Horizon had an EXTREMELY volatile relationship with management when they got their contract. They brought that company to its knees to get them to capitulate for their contract. extremely different apples and oranges.

Two things are for sure. Pinnacle Corp/Colgan management will not deal fairly with the Colgan pilots and the marketplace timing is not good.

Definitely agreed.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

fair enough...

You argue like a child, Rez. You are in love with ALPA, it's obvious. Good for you. Your arguments are VERY weak, however. You speak with a moderate intelligence regarding ALPA, but with an obvious LACK of intelligence regarding the Teamsters, making your argument very unsupportive and one-sided. You also say "I'm pushing the IBT" - another reading comprehension issue. I specifically said I was not pushing either union. You also ask uneducated questions, such as "what type of lobbying"? Well obviously the type that worked and got the job done.

I do think ALPA is the best union for pilots. As I said IBT is good for others but when pilots have issues the IBT thinks they are prima donnas. No?

I ask you what lobbying and you say the kind that gets the job the done.... what does that mean? IOW provide specifics.

Go fix ALPA. They definitely need some fixing, but you are so in love with them that you are blind to the truth, which means you won't help them at all. If ALPA is so great why does it need your help fixing it? What is it you think YOU are doing to fix it? (besides pushing for people to pay their dues to ALPA?)

This is rhetoric.... ALPA has problems... mainly leadership/followership... it needs to fix that paradigm.

If you are a Colgan pilot you would be foolish to not even look at the teamsters. Both have their pro's and con's and you need to make an educated decision. As I stated, I haven't made my own decision regarding what would be best for that pilot group, but if I were a pilot there, I'd definitely be doing some digging and not relying on jokers on this message board, and to just assume that "ALPA or nothing" is a foolish opinion, as it is very obvious to me that ALPA is not for everyone (if it was, why would very large carriers such as AA or just recently US Air kick their asses out?).

First, relying on FI for real information about ALPA or anything is foolish. TOO many people use the internet for facts when it is simply peoples opinion.

APA and USAIR. You need to know why these pilots groups left. None really have to do with ALPA itself.

So, do you know why?

Pilots should make educated decisions, and this stuff's very important. Maybe ALPA is the one. Maybe they aren't. That's all I said.

OK, go worship ALPA again now, Rez.

Fair enough... thanks for the emotion..

 

[Nevets]

Whichever one management prefers is the one you need to stay away from.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Whichever one management prefers is the one you need to stay away from.

Heh. That's a good point.

 

[cloudkicker1981]

Cloud kicker is gay.

wow,,,,no no your gay! it hurt it really really hurt. TOOL

 

[Nevets]

A union is only as strong as its members. PAY ATTENTION.



They got greedy and did not want to pay for IBT National's part of their dues. They were Teamsters when they got their contract, which is way better than ANY ALPA regional and have language that even the major pilots wish they had. FO's make over $70k/year 1st year if they want at Net Jets. Thanks to their Teamsters contract.

In case you weren't paying attention again, a union is only as strong as its members. Horizon - Strong Union. Good contract. ComAir - Strong Union. Good contract. Great Lakes - Weak union. Mesa - Weak union.

The strength of the pilots in the group is everything. For a strong union you need strong leadership who communicates thoroughly and the pilots trust. Once you have it, the bond is strong and the company can only close the doors or capitulate. History repeats itself EVERY single time and the outcome is solely dependent upon the strength of their members, NOT who they were paying dues to.



Yeah? Tell that to the Net Jets or Horizon pilots.

The Net Jets pilots had an adversarial relationship with the Teamsters since day 1, because Net Jets had no other choice. ALPA wouldn't take them, even though they fall under the RLA and are pilots (bet they regret that in Herndon, now). The Teamsters only have an airline division and fractional aviation is VERY different than airline flying. Their local 234 included plumbers, electricians, etc. who were not pilots in the leadership and the leadership controlled the money. Their contract negotiations were crap, as was their pilot solidarity. They formed a new leadership, got out from under Treichler and formed their own local and had a contract in a year - THE contract. A damn nice contract that has already been amended once and is even better now than it was in November of '05. However, they still had to deal with IBT National, whos constitution and by-laws did not mesh well with their fractional pilots, and they are a big enough pilot group that they decided to leave the nest and do it on their own, as many other organizations did with ALPA. I certainly don't think a pilot group of less than 1500 pilots could consider going on their own vs. going with EITHER ALPA or the Teamsters, they couldn't afford negotiations alone, let alone all the other resources headquarters offers at both of these organizations.

I certainly am not overly pro teamsters. I know you may think I am based on what I'm saying, just giving you a teamsters' perspective. I most certainly think they have their problems as well, but I do not think that they have the same problems a regional has at ALPA. ALPA cares about its dues just as addictively (is that a word?) as the teamsters. (Hello, 401K - we're ALPA and we want our share!) - Also, ALPA has consistently shown the conflict of interest that exists between regional and major carriers competing for the same flying, and ALPA has a HABIT of throwing regional carriers under the bus (US Air Express Jets for Jobs, Freedom, etc.) as well as having no problem in basically FORGETTING about long-time and HUGE dues contributors during mergers (TWA and US Air). I do not see ALPA being "better" than the Teamsters for any regional based on history.


There are pro's and con's for going teamsters I think for these guys, just like there are pro's and con's for going ALPA. It should take some serious thought. Anyone thinking that a "decent" merger should happen if they were ALPA vs. Teamsters should talk to the folks at US Air and see how that went for them. We'll see what happens with Delta and Northwest (and Compass). Conversely, we all saw what happened to the TWA guys when AA bought them. One thing's for sure - if they do NOT have a union and merge, they are REALLY screwed. If they have ANY union, WITH a contract, they will have SOME protection. They don't have anything right now. BAD situation. MUST change.

Also, so you know, Don Treichler, who ran not only the 747 but the teamsters airline division (and was a crook if you ask me) for decades is GONE. When he and like his 4 or 5 staff he had for his entire DIVISION left they replaced him with over 20 people. He was hording all the jobs to himself. That's changed over there and I've HEARD (not seen) good things regarding that change. Treichler is why Net Jets formed 1108 and the reason flight options went with the 1108, they wanted NOTHING to do with that guy. It was the right move.

Having said that, I am a current teamster illegally fired by Flight Options for being a union supporter (me and 70 others). I have yet to see what the Teamsters will do for me about that, although this week things are supposed to be happening (IE, the company's on its knees and the flight options pilots will not sign a TA without those pilots getting their jobs back, and they know it, so now they want to get them back).

Believe me, I think the teamsters have their problems. If things don't happen the way *I* want them to happen, they'll definitely be hearing from me, AND from my lawyer, as will the company. Net Jets left because they want to do their own thing and they don't like the constraints of being a sub-unit of IBT National, they want to call their own shots (and with that, take all the responsibility a union's national headquarters takes on). Personally, I think it was the wrong call, a greedy call, and one they may some day regret - especially since it was with the help of Wilder & Wilder, the IBT's law firm, that got them their contract. Now that they got it, they are leaving them. Whatever - that's their choice, that's what their pilots voted for. I wish them the best with it.

ALPA also has a very ugly history with how they treat regionals and ALPA-ALPA and ALPA-NON-ALPA mergers. It's all about the money for them, NOTHING else matters.

Either one is better than nothing. ALPA has the strength of the majority of the industry under its belt and airlines are not the IBT's main bread and butter. Those are definitely valid points. They both have their drawbacks and the pilots should think and discuss it long and hard, their future is at stake. I don't know which way I'd vote if i had to vote on that, today, and I'm a former ALPA and Teamster Union member and leadership member for both of them. Tough call. It would take some hard thinking and research. It's a sucky decision to be forced to make, but they need to make it.

Good luck, guys.

Just for the record, the IBT represent:

GoJet
Great Lakes
Gulfstream
USA 3000
Arrow
ATI
Centurion
Kalitta
Tradewinds
Republic
Horizon
Flight Options