Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Iraqi Invasion Implications

  • Thread starter Thread starter ch47fe
  • Start date Start date
  • Watchers Watchers 12

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter, it all depends on what side of the bomb your on.

Both sides target civillians, both sides act in reprehensible ways. I agree that Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the mid-east, it dosent give it the right to act the way it does.
A true democracy cannot be based on a religous government, it will always favor the people of that religon over the rights of the rest of the population.
 
A true democracy cannot last; however, a representative republic on the other hand can last. Only in a democracy does the "majority rule", a republic has room for all views, and protects all views.

The United States has a government that is centered around religion, as much as some may say it is not, it is. Read some of the written works of the founding fathers and see if they didn't think that religion (namely christianity) played a part in the founding of the government.
The Nazi's thought they were right about their beliefs, as do the palistineans, I happen to think that the Nazi's were wrong and the same with the palestinians, I guess it just depends what side of the bomb I'm on.

Why do I insist on wasting bandwidth with my incessant typing...?
 
chawbein

While I am aware of Mr. Sharon's exploits, the one's you mention and others, that's not who I was talking about. Go back a bit further. Israel became a nation as a result of a UN mandate in 1948. I was refering to activities prior to that date before Israel became a State. The prime minister's first name started with a B, if memory doesn't fail me. He was not a prime minister at the time and there was no IDF.

The differences you point out between a pure democracy and a republic are pretty accurate. That's why we have a "Republic".

The United States has a government that is centered around religion, as much as some may say it is not, it is. Read some of the written works of the founding fathers and see if they didn't think that religion (namely christianity) played a part in the founding of the government.

That may be true, but you must not overlook the all important provision of our Constitution that prevents the government from making any law with respect to the establishment of religion. Although christians, the founding fathers and their predecessor "pilgrims" were themselve victims of religious extremeism, and carefully provided a means to protect future generations from the evils of misguided religious zealots in control of a government. That's the difference.


To the other gentlemen:

I'm not "pro Palestinian". However, I am not "pro Israeli" either. That's what you seem unable or unwilling to recognize.

I do not want the Arabs or the Palestinians to push the Israelis into the sea and eliminate the zionist state. Neither do I wish Israel to occupy Palestinian terrorities.

I would like to see the Israelis withdraw to the borders they were given by the UN and remove their settlements and their military from Palestinian terrority. The Palestinians have as much "right" to a State of their own in that part of the world as do the Israelis.

What I really want is peace and an end to the killing on both sides. There is nothing "holy" about war. It makes know difference whether you're a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or a Buddhist. War is one of man's most evil creations, even when its only victims are the kids we call soldiers.
 
Last edited:
I promise this is my last reply

I am going to over simply Israel and the muslim problem in towel land.

Jews(Nor their faith)don't believe in killing everyone who does not believe the way they do. Even though old law of eye for an eye exists in scripture. Muslims don't tolerate other religions on their piece of the towel. You get the boot or a bullet or knife. The leadership really doesn't want peace they have done nothing but fight all of their lives. The poor common man is always caught in the middle.

If these people had a job making enough money to buy a Ford Explorer, spend money(radical multi colored burka's) at the mall and worry about which school their kid is going to attend they might get their mind off killing non muslims long enough to break out of the cycle.

Then again, this might not make them happy either. Probaly not.

Palestine has a right to be a state and they were offered that before but Yasser said "Nasser!" to that deal. They turned down their right as a state. Surplus1, set me staight if I am wrong about the previous statment.

All Palestine wants is a fight.

It's been interesting to see everyone's opinion on this topic and I will not keep this one draggin' on.

Later fellow pilots!!!
 
Well, I don't mind carrying in on for a while. It won't solve anything but I will get to learn how other people think. That's what these threads a good for anyway.

I don't think you're right on two counts.

1) The Palestinians aren't killing Jews over religion. They were living peacfully, together with the Jews for well over a thousand years before the Israeli state was created in their midst.

IMO, both of these people are killing each other over real estate, not religion.

2) Arafat didn't really turn down the offer of a Palestinian state. He turned down the offer of a state with much of the land settled by invading foreigners.

It's like you moving into my house by force, takeing over all the bedrooms and forcing me to sleep on the couch. Then when I get p*ssed and fight you, you offer to settle by telling me I can have the house back, but you intend to occupy the mater bedroom forever. Can you guess my reaction?

Let's make a comparison to the Irish and the Brits. Think that's really a fight between Protestants and Catholics? I don't.

Ireland is not Great Britain. It took the Irish forever to gain their independence from the English, only to wind up with a bunch of Scotsmen occuping 1/4 of the country, calling it Northern Ireland, and opressing the Irish who live there.

The Brits need to go back to their own country. When they do, the fight will end.

There is no war between Catholics in Ireland and the Protestants who live there, and there are many. There is also no War between Protestants in Great Britain and the Catholics who live there.

The struggle between the Irish and the British results from the occupation of Irish land by British people, enforced by the British army. It has nothing whatever to do with religion.

I argue that the same is true between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The Palestinians are fighting because they were displaced from their land and their homes, not by people of the Jewish faith who always lived there beside them, but by a million Jews from Europe displaced by European wars and anti-semitism.

The Palestinians have yet to put any Jews in ovens. That was accomplished by Christians who called themselves Nazis. While the rest of Europe's Christians and aethists alike, did not use ovens, it is no secret that the persecuted and mistreated their Jewish populations and still do, far more than the Arabs ever did.

The fight is not about religion, it is about land!

Speaking of the Irish/British problem, where does the IRA get its money to conduct terrorist acts in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain? How come there has never been an anti-IRA campaign conducted by the US Govt.? Do you think it may have anything to do with the power of the American Irish, who provide the funds?

I don't really care which side of the bombs you choose to be on, but I do think the perspectives could be a bit more realistic.

The Israeli/Palestinian problem is totally separate from what happened on 9/11 and should not be linked to it.

Those sob's weren't Palestinians, they were Saudis and Egyptians. There leader lived in Afganistan and we went there to take him out along with the regime that he had come to control. Bravo! We needed to do it and we did.

That having been said, I just hate the hyprocrisy of GWB who rails about cutting off Al Qeda's money, but drinks tea in the Whitehouse with the Saudi prince that provided it and continues to do so with impunity.

I hate double standards, and the double standards of my government have caused and are causing the American people, more trouble and problems than any of us deserve.

This country is the greatest and the most powerful, and its people are generous, caring and loving in the overwhelming majority.

However, the foreign policy of our government sucks and has for a very long time.

JMO
 
Surplus1,
Its great to see your posts on this board, they are intelligent and very informative, i've learned a lot , even though we seem to be on the same page on many of the issues discussed.

I think its great that this medium is available for these discusions its good way to become more well rounded in your information aside from what rupert and turner tell us. I've also had many great conversations in the cockpit with people whose opinions I Didnt agree with at all, thats when I usually learn the most. If you can have an intelligent conversation without childish and moronic name calling then we all can learn something.

"Remember if you dont understand the othersides argument, then you dont fully understand your own"
dont know who said that.

Our Government represents us to the rest of the world, with the hypocratic policy they pursue we look bad.

I know that most people in the Mid-East dont hate the American people and culture, next time you see a protest or rally from the Mid-East look at all the Nike logos and Levis being worn by the people, they hate the US foriegn policy that infringes on their ability to live descent lives.
 
s. o. s...

It was a lawyer who said that (about the other side's arguments). It was a lawyer who also said, "never ask a question of a witness that where you don't know the answer."

We are good for a few quotes, at least. :)

Great thread, very good discussion.
 
It was also a lawyer who said, "check your posts for grammatical or syntax errors before posting and looking like an idiot (me)."

Take out the "that" in front of "where" in the preceding post.
 
The Arabs have a problem understanding that when you start wars in which you objective is to drive your enemy into the sea, and you LOSE (despite overwhelming numbers), then you don't get to go back to where you were before, so you can start it all over again. The arabs have a hard time winning and a hard time losing. The Jews have shown incredible restraint considering that the real objective of Hamas, Jihad, etc etc (with the support of a majority of Palestinians) has been to exterminate Israel. Useful fools in the US can afford to be gullible and stupid. When your back is against the sea, you can't.
 
RE: Islamic or Muslim Extremists/Terrorists.

Why do people still join these two words? You don't hear people calling David Koresh a Christian Extremist. Why not? Because most people know that he in no way represented the true tenets of Christianity and did not consider him to be a Christian.....only an Extremist.

When they gassed the subway in Japan, they didn't refer to them as Buddhist Terrorists.......simply Terrorists.

The assholes who did what they did on 9/11 were not Islamic (they only claimed to be). Rather, all they were was some f***-up Extremist/Fanatic/Terrorist and used a much distorted view of a religion as their excuse.
 
Islamic/Muslim Terrorists

Nobody ran around screaming Koresh was a Christian terrorist because large numbers of "Christian" leaders openly condemn this type of behavior.

UNLIKE the Islamic/Muslim Coummunity leaders. After 9/11 and until this very day the leaders of the American Muslim/Islamic community have not spent the least amount of time openly condemning the acts of Islam.

Sorry but the fact is these idiots did it in the name of Islam. They flew a plane into buildings to kill people.

Don't even try to compare what happened to Koresh to the Islamic wackos. The Feds torched the Waco compound and totally goofed-up that entire operation. The Feds played a large part in pushing Koresh into what happened. He was not openly trying to lure agents into the compund to kill them or other innocents as the 9/11 incident. Even the agents that were inolved in Waco admit massive govenrment errors while all they had to do was wait out a peaceful option. Uncle Sugar's boys wanted a fire fight that day after so many months of little action.

Of course Koresh was an idiot and after all of this happened Falwell, Graham and countless other "Christian" leaders openly condemned how this man used Christ for wrongdoing and mis leading others. I haven't seen any of this behavior from the Islamic/Muslim community?! Truth is, the majority of the muslims here sympathize with these terrorists.

Many of the Muslim/Islamic immigrants have no intention of assimilating into our society. They still make their women wear head dress. If the millions of immigrants from around the world have come here to 'blend' in somewhat so should the Middle easterners. Anyone can retain their heritage that's fine but you should try to assimilate into American society to some degree not try to divide it.

God Bless America!!!
 
I would love to fly with you guys, that discussion ate up about 6.0 hours of an 8.0 hour leg.....then continued at the bar.
 
surplus1 said:
1) The Palestinians aren't killing Jews over religion. They were living peacfully, together with the Jews for well over a thousand years before the Israeli state was created in their midst.

First, they were living "peacefully" together for a thousand years because there were only a several thousand Jews in the area and the government was Ottoman. The land was basically ruined and wasted. With the rise of Zionism (Zion is an ancient name for Jerusalem) and the arrival of more Jews starting in the late 1800's the economics of the region started growing and that attracted both more Jews and more Arab laborers to settle in the area. The Ottoman Turks were happy with the increase in tax revenue. The Balfour Declaration which declared a "favourable" opinion of the eventual formation of a Jewish country immediately led to hostilities by the Arabs. BTW, the Brits retracted the Balfour by the late 30's.

IMO, both of these people are killing each other over real estate, not religion.

Ah, but you have a conceptual misunderstanding. For both Jews and Muslims the land is tied with the religion and one cannot separate the two! For centuries the Jews have existed without their own land only by maintaining their religion, culture and a shared desire to return to their homeland of Israel. That doesn't however give them the right to usurp Arab-owned land. The U.N. Partition Plan of 1947 gave land to both Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted it and the Arabs declared war. The Arabs subsequently lost most of theirs while the Jews lost the Jewish section of Old Jerusalem. During the period of 1949-1967 the Jordanians turned the ancient synagogues into horse stables and didn't allow ANY Jews into the Old City.

There was mention earlier of Jewish terrorism during the formation of Israel. It is shameful that civilians were ever targeted but I must emphasize that it was NOT government-sponsored. In fact, at one point the Israeli government fired on and sank a ship full of desperately needed weapons because they were intended for Menachem Beagan's Irgun group. It was practially a civil war but Beagan wisely decided not to press it. Additionally, before the King David Hotel was blown up the Irgun gave over twenty minutes warning which the Brits arrogantly ignored.

I confess to being biased but as an American I seek freedom and justice for all peoples of the world. To a large extent the Arabs of Palestine are unwilling pawns of the Arab governments and their goal of Israel's destruction. There's no reason why refugee camps were maintained in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt other than to maintain pressure against Israel. Yes, innocents were uprooted from their rightful homes but as has been mentioned here when you declare war and lose that's what happens.
 
A different view

Just thought you might find this interesting as I sort of pertains to this thread. This is just an opinion of this individual, I'm sure, and is not presented here to come from a factual representation.

DENNIS MILLER EXECUTIVE SUMMARY ON THE MID-EAST CONFLICT


A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver.

Here we go: The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped.

Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish anything In Life and Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of eternal struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun.

No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the real fun is - but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel - or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it-for the last fifty-four years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward people on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Yeah, right! Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our 'Arab allies' as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City bombing every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. Isn't that sort of a double standard? If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the editerranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)
 
surplus1

TWA dude is right on. And of course the Arab world is manipulating the so called "Palestinians" as an issue to divert the attention of their own people from their own crappy existence. Classic dictator tactics: have a big boogey man threat from outside so the people won't think so much about how miserable their lives are. But I think it even goes much deeper than that. The Israel-"palestinian" conflict is the flashpoint for the greater clash of cultures between the West and the Middle East. Look at it as a proxy war between the West and the Arabs much like Vietnam was a kind of proxy war between the US and Soviets. As such, in my view, we all have a lot on the line in Israel. There are an awfully lot of people over there who not only want to drive the Jews into the sea, but mean to destroy the West altogether.
In my view we definitely have serious national security issues at stake in Israel.
Sarcastic and scathing article by Dennis Miller . . . couldn't be more true.
Shalom ya'll.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom