Iraqi Invasion Implications

[furloboy]

'UN Inspectors?

Didnt Israel and Ariel Sharon deny UN inspectors into Jenin? no sanciotns from the UN and we still give them Billions of our tax dollars every year. "

--The UN just released a report stating there was no massacre at Jenin. And the UN is definitely not Israel-friendly.

 

[DoinTime]

This whole thread just reinforces my opinion that pilots should never be alowed to talk about politics or religion let alone both in the same discussion.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

'UN Inspectors?

Didnt Israel and Ariel Sharon deny UN inspectors into Jenin? no sanciotns from the UN and we still give them Billions of our tax dollars every year. "

--The UN just released a report stating there was no massacre at Jenin. And the UN is definitely not Israel-friendly.

The UN inspectors were denied access to Jenin by Sharon, the report was generated through interviews and the limited media acounts. Just like Saddam has denied inspectors. I know that the UN is not Israel-friendly, my point was that resolutions against Isreal are not enforced (resolutions that are over 30 years old!) yet Iraq is forced to comply through force in the name of the UN.

 

[TurboS7]

We are really busy already just with a little talk of Iraq. The C-5's are burning a lot of jet fuel which is great news for the CRAFT fleet. An Iraq buildup would sure help us with the slumping numbers that we have for the fall. War is very good for aviation, especially in the big airplane market.

 

[enigma]

re: s.o.s.JTB

s.o.s.

In reference to your first post in this string. You compared our support of Israel to Iraq a few times. I want to remind everyone that Israel is the ONLY representitive republic/democracy in the region. That is the difference between Israel and Iraq. We as a people/government attempt to support democracies. If ya'll want something to be pissed about; did you know that we also send hundreds of millions to Arafat and his Palestinian Authority?

regards
8N

PS, If any of you have a hard time deciding who is good/bad in the middle east; answer these questions. When was the last time you saw the Israelis celebrating another attack against their enemys? How about the Palestinians? Which side uses legitimate military force and attacks military targets? Which side uses impressionable teenagers to attack civilians? Which side raises their children to hate the other side?

Remember the words of Golda Meir (sp?)Paraphrased because my memory s*cks.
"Peace will not come to the middle east until the Palastenians begin to love their children more than they hate the Israelis".

 

[enigma]

And another thing.........

There have been numerous posts attemting to equate the Israelis refusal to allow the UN into Jenin with Iraqs refusal to allow UN weapons inspectors.

This one is easy, Iraq agreed to the weapons inspectors as a condition of its SURRENDER after getting its butt kicked in the Gulf war. Israel is not under the terms of a surrender/peace agreement.

Look at it this way, what if the UN decided that they wanted to come into NYC and investigate why we killed 19 innocent hijackers on September 11, 2001? What if the UN decided that they wanted to investigate why the US is oppressing poor immigrant student pilots, would we just roll over and give the UN authority over our sovereignty? I hope not. Neither should Israel.

 

[surplus1]

Enigma,

I won't debate the Israeli vs Palestinian question, but in your thinking do not forget the fact that the Israelis have the most powerful military machine in the region. Perhaps more powerful that all the rest combined, particularly considering it's unlimited resupply capabilities from our government.

The Palestinians, have no organize military force, no comparable military equipment and no source of supply or resupply.

The Palestinians also do not have a $100 million plus PR budget to promote their cause in the US. The Israelis do. The Palestinians have no large and powerful lobby of very wealthy American Palestinians to influence US politicians. The Israelis do.

It is not exactly a balanced dispute.

Remember also that when the now Israelis were attempting to establish the Israeli state and fighting the British, they also resorted to acts of terrorism, many perpetrated by subsequent prime ministers. It didn't get the live TV coverage in living color at suppertime and 24/7 that the Palestinian acts of terror get today in this country. For practical purposes, TV barely existed. It is also true that our TV "journalists" are as prejudiced in favor of the Israelis as is Al Jeerez in favor of the Palestinians. We don't get Al Jeerez and as far as I know, it doesn't broadcast in English anyway. However, everyone in the region can see and understand all US news channels.

I condemn suicide bomings, but this is hardly a "fair fight".

 

[chawbein]

Surplus,

The Israeli "terrorism" you speak of indeed existed. Ariel Sharon created an elite unit (they wore civilian clothes) of the IDF to kick the crap out of palestinian terrorists who were (even at that time (the 50's) blowing up buses full of civilians). Sharon's group crossed into suspected terrorist camps and proceeded to kill every last person. I just thought I would try to illuminate what you were talking about for those who might not know. Feel free to correct me if I missed something.

 

[ch47fe]

I had no idea!!!

I am enlightened to see so much support for Palestine. It's not a fair fight, the Israleis are terrists too, blah, blah.

Surplus, Chawmain
Please let me know the last time the entire Palestinian race was targeted for extinction?

There is simply no comparasion between the actions of Israel and Palestine.

Jews were targeted for extinction and Jerusalem is the only protector of the people and the Jewish faith in that part of the world. Sharon is a combatant no a politician that's the only reason they have not had their a$$ handed to them in a basket yet. And it helps to have the unlimited arms supply from the US as mentioned earlier with other interesting points.

 

[chawbein]

I in no way support the palestinians. I was just relaying the historical fact that Sharon did create that group and did slaughter lots of terrorists. I totally agree with the tactic. Take their kind of fight to them and see how long they can stand it. That is how you win a war, not with p*ssified "peace talks". Go Israel, kick the sh!t out of them, they deserve it.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter, it all depends on what side of the bomb your on.

Both sides target civillians, both sides act in reprehensible ways. I agree that Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the mid-east, it dosent give it the right to act the way it does.
A true democracy cannot be based on a religous government, it will always favor the people of that religon over the rights of the rest of the population.

 

[chawbein]

A true democracy cannot last; however, a representative republic on the other hand can last. Only in a democracy does the "majority rule", a republic has room for all views, and protects all views.

The United States has a government that is centered around religion, as much as some may say it is not, it is. Read some of the written works of the founding fathers and see if they didn't think that religion (namely christianity) played a part in the founding of the government.
The Nazi's thought they were right about their beliefs, as do the palistineans, I happen to think that the Nazi's were wrong and the same with the palestinians, I guess it just depends what side of the bomb I'm on.

Why do I insist on wasting bandwidth with my incessant typing...?

 

[surplus1]

chawbein

While I am aware of Mr. Sharon's exploits, the one's you mention and others, that's not who I was talking about. Go back a bit further. Israel became a nation as a result of a UN mandate in 1948. I was refering to activities prior to that date before Israel became a State. The prime minister's first name started with a B, if memory doesn't fail me. He was not a prime minister at the time and there was no IDF.

The differences you point out between a pure democracy and a republic are pretty accurate. That's why we have a "Republic".

The United States has a government that is centered around religion, as much as some may say it is not, it is. Read some of the written works of the founding fathers and see if they didn't think that religion (namely christianity) played a part in the founding of the government.

That may be true, but you must not overlook the all important provision of our Constitution that prevents the government from making any law with respect to the establishment of religion. Although christians, the founding fathers and their predecessor "pilgrims" were themselve victims of religious extremeism, and carefully provided a means to protect future generations from the evils of misguided religious zealots in control of a government. That's the difference.


To the other gentlemen:

I'm not "pro Palestinian". However, I am not "pro Israeli" either. That's what you seem unable or unwilling to recognize.

I do not want the Arabs or the Palestinians to push the Israelis into the sea and eliminate the zionist state. Neither do I wish Israel to occupy Palestinian terrorities.

I would like to see the Israelis withdraw to the borders they were given by the UN and remove their settlements and their military from Palestinian terrority. The Palestinians have as much "right" to a State of their own in that part of the world as do the Israelis.

What I really want is peace and an end to the killing on both sides. There is nothing "holy" about war. It makes know difference whether you're a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu or a Buddhist. War is one of man's most evil creations, even when its only victims are the kids we call soldiers.

 

[ch47fe]

I promise this is my last reply

I am going to over simply Israel and the muslim problem in towel land.

Jews(Nor their faith)don't believe in killing everyone who does not believe the way they do. Even though old law of eye for an eye exists in scripture. Muslims don't tolerate other religions on their piece of the towel. You get the boot or a bullet or knife. The leadership really doesn't want peace they have done nothing but fight all of their lives. The poor common man is always caught in the middle.

If these people had a job making enough money to buy a Ford Explorer, spend money(radical multi colored burka's) at the mall and worry about which school their kid is going to attend they might get their mind off killing non muslims long enough to break out of the cycle.

Then again, this might not make them happy either. Probaly not.

Palestine has a right to be a state and they were offered that before but Yasser said "Nasser!" to that deal. They turned down their right as a state. Surplus1, set me staight if I am wrong about the previous statment.

All Palestine wants is a fight.

It's been interesting to see everyone's opinion on this topic and I will not keep this one draggin' on.

Later fellow pilots!!!

 

[surplus1]

Well, I don't mind carrying in on for a while. It won't solve anything but I will get to learn how other people think. That's what these threads a good for anyway.

I don't think you're right on two counts.

1) The Palestinians aren't killing Jews over religion. They were living peacfully, together with the Jews for well over a thousand years before the Israeli state was created in their midst.

IMO, both of these people are killing each other over real estate, not religion.

2) Arafat didn't really turn down the offer of a Palestinian state. He turned down the offer of a state with much of the land settled by invading foreigners.

It's like you moving into my house by force, takeing over all the bedrooms and forcing me to sleep on the couch. Then when I get p*ssed and fight you, you offer to settle by telling me I can have the house back, but you intend to occupy the mater bedroom forever. Can you guess my reaction?

Let's make a comparison to the Irish and the Brits. Think that's really a fight between Protestants and Catholics? I don't.

Ireland is not Great Britain. It took the Irish forever to gain their independence from the English, only to wind up with a bunch of Scotsmen occuping 1/4 of the country, calling it Northern Ireland, and opressing the Irish who live there.

The Brits need to go back to their own country. When they do, the fight will end.

There is no war between Catholics in Ireland and the Protestants who live there, and there are many. There is also no War between Protestants in Great Britain and the Catholics who live there.

The struggle between the Irish and the British results from the occupation of Irish land by British people, enforced by the British army. It has nothing whatever to do with religion.

I argue that the same is true between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The Palestinians are fighting because they were displaced from their land and their homes, not by people of the Jewish faith who always lived there beside them, but by a million Jews from Europe displaced by European wars and anti-semitism.

The Palestinians have yet to put any Jews in ovens. That was accomplished by Christians who called themselves Nazis. While the rest of Europe's Christians and aethists alike, did not use ovens, it is no secret that the persecuted and mistreated their Jewish populations and still do, far more than the Arabs ever did.

The fight is not about religion, it is about land!

Speaking of the Irish/British problem, where does the IRA get its money to conduct terrorist acts in both Northern Ireland and Great Britain? How come there has never been an anti-IRA campaign conducted by the US Govt.? Do you think it may have anything to do with the power of the American Irish, who provide the funds?

I don't really care which side of the bombs you choose to be on, but I do think the perspectives could be a bit more realistic.

The Israeli/Palestinian problem is totally separate from what happened on 9/11 and should not be linked to it.

Those sob's weren't Palestinians, they were Saudis and Egyptians. There leader lived in Afganistan and we went there to take him out along with the regime that he had come to control. Bravo! We needed to do it and we did.

That having been said, I just hate the hyprocrisy of GWB who rails about cutting off Al Qeda's money, but drinks tea in the Whitehouse with the Saudi prince that provided it and continues to do so with impunity.

I hate double standards, and the double standards of my government have caused and are causing the American people, more trouble and problems than any of us deserve.

This country is the greatest and the most powerful, and its people are generous, caring and loving in the overwhelming majority.

However, the foreign policy of our government sucks and has for a very long time.

JMO

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Surplus1,
Its great to see your posts on this board, they are intelligent and very informative, i've learned a lot , even though we seem to be on the same page on many of the issues discussed.

I think its great that this medium is available for these discusions its good way to become more well rounded in your information aside from what rupert and turner tell us. I've also had many great conversations in the cockpit with people whose opinions I Didnt agree with at all, thats when I usually learn the most. If you can have an intelligent conversation without childish and moronic name calling then we all can learn something.

"Remember if you dont understand the othersides argument, then you dont fully understand your own"
dont know who said that.

Our Government represents us to the rest of the world, with the hypocratic policy they pursue we look bad.

I know that most people in the Mid-East dont hate the American people and culture, next time you see a protest or rally from the Mid-East look at all the Nike logos and Levis being worn by the people, they hate the US foriegn policy that infringes on their ability to live descent lives.

 

[MSNFlier]

s. o. s...

It was a lawyer who said that (about the other side's arguments). It was a lawyer who also said, "never ask a question of a witness that where you don't know the answer."

We are good for a few quotes, at least.

Great thread, very good discussion.

 

[MSNFlier]

It was also a lawyer who said, "check your posts for grammatical or syntax errors before posting and looking like an idiot (me)."

Take out the "that" in front of "where" in the preceding post.

 

[Draginass]

The Arabs have a problem understanding that when you start wars in which you objective is to drive your enemy into the sea, and you LOSE (despite overwhelming numbers), then you don't get to go back to where you were before, so you can start it all over again. The arabs have a hard time winning and a hard time losing. The Jews have shown incredible restraint considering that the real objective of Hamas, Jihad, etc etc (with the support of a majority of Palestinians) has been to exterminate Israel. Useful fools in the US can afford to be gullible and stupid. When your back is against the sea, you can't.

 

[Captain X]

RE: Islamic or Muslim Extremists/Terrorists.

Why do people still join these two words? You don't hear people calling David Koresh a Christian Extremist. Why not? Because most people know that he in no way represented the true tenets of Christianity and did not consider him to be a Christian.....only an Extremist.

When they gassed the subway in Japan, they didn't refer to them as Buddhist Terrorists.......simply Terrorists.

The assholes who did what they did on 9/11 were not Islamic (they only claimed to be). Rather, all they were was some f***-up Extremist/Fanatic/Terrorist and used a much distorted view of a religion as their excuse.