Interesting happenings over at DAL

[spongebob]

Well it seems that something interesting is going on at Bubba Jet. The company negotiator, Arlen Chanois (who is soon to replace Erskine), has confided that because the recall trigger for the return of the furloughees has ben met in March, the company will honor the arbitrator ruling and start the recall. The interesting point is that DAL is planning on absorbing the 1000 pilots by putting them in 70 seaters! Chanois said the company plans to put the RJ's on mainline and staff them with mainline pilots at yet to be determined rates.

This makes things interesting!

SB

 

[350DRIVER]

They need to get those 1060 off the street first before they allow anyone else to fly those routes/equipment. I do not blame them and hope they continue in this "direction". If this is true then good for the furloughed guys. Just a matter of time before they get back to the "mainline equipment" that they were once so use to operating and getting paid for.


Enough with giving routes/equipment away...


3 5 0

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Enough with giving routes/equipment away...


3 5 0

Amen brother, too bad the clowns at the rest of the Majors can't figure this one out!

 

[350DRIVER]

Amen brother, too bad the clowns at the rest of the Majors can't figure this one out!

Any expansion in routes/equipment needs to be done by "mainline" pilots. Those 1060 have been on the streets long enough. The 70 seater will be peanuts in comparison to the pay and what they "were" flying at one point in the distant past, but better than nothing till Delta get's back moving forward again and they can get back home to where they belong.


Give em he!! Delta...


3 5 0

General, nice 75th anniversary 767.

 

[DAL737FO]

"The interesting point is that DAL is planning on absorbing the 1000 pilots by putting them in 70 seaters! Chanois said the company plans to put the RJ's on mainline and staff them with mainline pilots at yet to be determined rates."

Boy I would like to know where you heard this. I'm a furloughed Delta Pilot and keep up with current events and about the only thing factual in your post is the "unofficial" hitting of the recall RPM trigger. Don't get me wrong, I would love to go back and fly an RJ70 but I just don't see it happening.

Also I was trying to figure out your background from the aircraft you have listed as flown. Are you former Army or Marine (AH-1), Navy (HH-60) or Air Force (C-5). Inquiring minds and all.

727 Freight Dawg
used to fly for Delta

 

[ATL2CDG]

Interesting rumor...

While I doubt the validity of the rumor, let it be known that if it is true, you'll see ASA/CMR pilots/flight attendants up in arms!

Okay. So mainline pilots are now flying CRJ700s at B-scale rates with a direct course back to mainline operations when (not 'if') conditions improve. Who will be manning the cabin? Mainline furloughed flight attendants? A general 'DCI' flight attendant pool yet to be created? Various ASA/CMR flight attendants?

'Oh, but US Airways has 'MidAtlantic Airways with PSA operating 70-seaters too!' scream the masses. Yes, they do, but it's a slightly different song. MAA is operating E170s with mainline furloughed pilots and flight attendants. PSA is operating CRJ705s with 'regional' crews. US Airways purposely separated the E170 and CRJ705 fleets to prove a subtle point: E170s are mainline-like airframes while CRJ70Xs are regional airframes. Should DAL have mainline pilots operate CRJ700s, the precedent set by US Airways will be mute.

One of the major arguments between mainline and regional operations in the US aviation industry at this time is 'mission purpose': mainline is for the general transport of passengers between points while regionals serve to feed the hubs to aid mainline to this end. Well, as anyone can easily see with various examples from almost all legacy carrier networks, this is not truly the case. Regional airlines are flying longer and longer routes and many point-to-point services, just not 'bringin' 'em in for the widebodies.' Regional pilots (and flight attendants, to some extent) have been fighting for a more solid position within the greater picture. They are seeking more equitable wages, benefits, works rules and more. However, the legacy carriers continue to beat home the fact that their regional affiliates serve a different mission than their mainline counterparts, and as such, must fall under a different idea of the profession. Goodness, even within DCI, management states that ASA and CMR have different missions (and thus refuse to consider a merger between the two). However, all can easily see, ASA and CMR serve the same mission: putting money in the mainline pilots' pensions.

To get back to the point, should DAL bring mainline pilots back online (which I fully support) and place them on 'regional equipment', you'll see the RJDC and other similar organizations (about which I have no specific opinion) crapping in their pants to get lawsuits filed in court arguing that such actions necessitate a merger of operations between mainline and wholly-owned subsidary operations. Politicially, although not necessarily economically, it'd be a wiser move to bring in a completely different airframe (such as the B717 or new Fokker line-up). However, with CRJ700s flying around in mainline colors, you'll see even further animosity between mainline and 'regional' (especially the WOs) crews.

Given the points I've half-heartedly made above, I stand behind my presumption the rumor is either completely false or is missing vital details. DAL management, while not necessarily the brightest kid on the block, is no idiot when it comes to labor issues.

TysV

PS: This rumor in conjunction with the WO sell-off rumors do make an interesting mix. Given how the mainline pilot contract scope clause is written, dramatic changes would have to be made to the mainline contract to allow non-WO carriers fly 70-seaters, etc. Interesting, indeed...

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Well that would be interesting...

 

[doh]

Actually, the rjdc would be out of business. Since the argument for no merger was that to be elegible you had to be ale to get off a Delta plane and get on a Comair/ASA plane and fly, the mainline would immediately start the merger process. After all, there are no hypocrits at the mainline, are there?

 

[House_X]

Well, Delta can put them in the Dornier Jet...they will "own" 30 of them in 6 months per canceling our (ACA) contract "without cause".

By the way, what 70 seaters? Do you mean pull them from ASA/Comair fleets?

 

[ATL2CDG]

Not quite...

House_X:

Actually, if you were inclined enough to know the details of the relationship between DAL/DCI and ACA, you would be aware that the contract is being terminated before the end date for very 'just' reasons.

Within the scope clauses of the DAL pilot contract, it states that no DCI carrier may operate an aircraft with greater than 70 seats (whether in DCI colors or not) and, currently, DCI is operated to a fleet of 57 CRJ700s (which will be in place end of 4Q 2004). With ACA's voluntary decision to create Independence Air and operate A319/A320, ACA placed itself into a position to be unable to operate DCI flight. ACA management was aware of this from the beginning and elected to follow-through on their LCC plans anways.

Don't go shaking your finger at DAL; ACA knew the rules and limits placed upon them by the mainline pilot scope clause. They elected to ignore them or face the consequences. Obviously, the consequences in this case are the loss of DCI services.

To the other point, DAL was not under any obligation to take the 328Jets. The agreement between DAL and ACA left various options available should the contract end prematurely and DAL elected to take the aircraft. However, if you read press releases from ACA, it would seem ACA hasn't yet made the decision to 'give' them to DAL/DCI.

Time will tell.

TysV

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: Not quite...

Actually, if you were inclined enough to know the details of the relationship between DAL/DCI and ACA, you would be aware that the contract is being terminated before the end date for very 'just' reasons.

Within the scope clauses of the DAL pilot contract, it states that no DCI carrier may operate an aircraft with greater than 70 seats (whether in DCI colors or not) and, currently, DCI is operated to a fleet of 57 CRJ700s (which will be in place end of 4Q 2004). With ACA's voluntary decision to create Independence Air and operate A319/A320, ACA placed itself into a position to be unable to operate DCI flight.

Ok, then explain why it is acceptible for Chautauqua to fly Republic and fine for Skway to fly MidWest Express? Or Eagle and American for that matter on the code out of LAX.

Could it be that ALPA's only objection was that a Regional Pilot might fly a Mainline jet?

( Good post though ... )

Back to topic - is there anything that stops a leg by leg transfer of flying from mainline to ASA? Yesturday I operated Delta Flight 1033 as Candler 9336 ( an extra section ) at the same times to the same city pair. The gate agents and rampers said this is becoming more common.

As far as putting mainline pilots into my airplane, I have expected it for a while. ALPA does not recognize my right to exist on the property and the only thing slowing the US Air style job grab is the RJDC.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Interesting!

So how does this change that "operational integration" thingy?

I still do not believe we will see the 70's at mainline. With the recall possibly around the corner, chapter 11 is becoming more possible or actually probable.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tim :

Its always been my arguement that if your customers can't tell you apart - you are operationally integrated.

Mainline pilots are operating RJ's at Skywest, Chautauqua, ACA, Eagle, Republic, Mid Atlantic and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few. The fact that the only place jets for jobs does not exist is Comair and ASA is not a mere conincidence.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[Vortilon]

I disagree about bankruptcy. The recall might provide some incentive to the company to actually negotiate for a change. I want my job back as much as anyone but I'm a realist and don't expect (expect meaning I don't think it will happen) to be unassigned forever making six figures. I can dream, though! They can debate over 2/29 all they want (if thats actually happening) because we'll probably have the proper numbers again for April and so on.

Maybe with the change in negotiators (company side), they'll have renewed energy and be able to think outside the box and come up with a long term solution for everyone, with regards to furlough recall AND concessions.

I'd be happy just to have my furlough clock reset, be getting paid by Delta, and flying 121 again. I'd be happy to throw gear for someone at a DCI carrier until staffing levels required my return to my beloved Douglas Death Tube. I just want the company to live up to their original obligations per our contract...ie: employ me as a pilot!

Who knows...I think this stuff will get worked out. DL only has ONE union to negotiate with and if they enter BK just to impose workrules its going to be a real failure on management's part. It certainly would seem to be false economy to do that when you have a pilot group ready to share in the sacrifice but simply wants to company to spend the $$$ responsibly.

Anyway, back to cleaning lavs.....

Friends don't let friends fly charter.

 

[T-Gates]

Friends don't let friends fly charter.

LMAO!

 

[DaveGriffin]

What sweethearts

I just want the company to live up to their original obligations per our contract.

They are living up to the contract Vort.

The contract included a FM clause, agreed to by the MEC's negotiators, which was triggered by the attacks of 11 Sep. The recalls will start in accordance with the Board's ruling.

If the seniors had any interest in not sacrificing your paycheck for theirs, they could have found a way and a deal to keep everyone working. You know how it is...they don't give a sh!t about the junior guys.

But to be fair, the seniors did make the ultimate sacrifice and pony up for the COBRA payments. What sweethearts.

 

[Vortilon]

I don't expect ANYONE to give up their paycheck for mine. I don't expect them to make concessions to get my job back...the two issues are on the table but I don't believe they should be tied together directly.

I have to take exception to your post about "senior" Delta pilots. I will always be grateful of the generosity of the working DAL pilots that have paid for my health care when I could afford none. I gladly contributed one hour's pay every month ($100) to the Furlough Relief fund while I was working even though I knew the end was near, but figured someone else might need it more than me. The Delta pilots were the FIRST group to pay for furloughee Cobra payments once furloughs started. The were the FIRST group to do that back in the 90s as well. Other groups followed but the DAL pilots lead in generosity to their DALPA brothers and sisters. Since 9/11, The Delta pilots have donated millions to the Furloughed Pilot/Emergency relief fund that helps pilots when they are on the financial brink of disaster.

Every year Delta Pilots VOLUNTARILY raise over $100,000 of their own money to give to us furloughees as Secret Santa Christmas gifts. Its a small token but it means a lot. Name another pilot group that does that. Nobody else in the big 3-4 does that. The Delta pilots contribute more money to ALPA-PAC than any other group. The Delta pilots are a generous, thoughtful group that give a lot back to aviation, the community, and fellow pilots. The furloughed pilots have also hosted BBQs and such for the Delta pilots to show their appreciation and thanks. I hope one day I'll have the pleasure of continuing these fine traditions and values.

 

[DaveGriffin]

A VERY small token

I
Every year Delta Pilots VOLUNTARILY raise over $100,000 of their own money to give to us furloughees as Secret Santa Christmas gifts. Its a small token ......

You're exactly right Vort..... it is a small token...less than $14 a pilot. The COBRA assessment isn't much more.

As I said, what a bunch of sweethearts. The small pittance they pay goes a long way to easing their conscience and lets them get a good night's sleep when 1,060 are out on the street with nothing, all in accordance with the contract that they signed.

 

[AeroBoy]

Last time I checked, it was management that furloughs pilots. When furloughs must occur, the union MECs try and make the number furloughed as low as possible. So let's put the blame for furloughs where it belongs--on management and the market itself (management can do only so much--it's not their fault that people didn't really want to fly the airlines after 9/11 or that the economy went south).

 

[Xfr8dog]

Hi!

Where did SpongeBob fly Military?

I think he was an Army rotorhead, and then went through Fixed-Wing Qual at Vance AFB, and then C-5s for either the AF Reserve or Guard.

Am I correct, SB?

CLiff
DTW

 

[ATL2CDG]

~~~^~~~:

I'm not quite sure I understand your question.

Republic Holdings, the parent company of Chautauqua, is going to be operating Republic Airways under a different certificate, thereby avoiding the scope clause issue. This will be done in much the same fashion as the ACA/ACJet split dearing the early months of ACAI's contract with DCI. Chautauqua and Republic will be two seperate corporate entities, will have separate certificates and have different fleets (interestingly enough, there are all sorts of rumors about CHQ managements saying that crews will be able to transition back and forth - I'm not quite how realistic this is with different operating certificates).

Skyway is not an issue, either. Currently, they do not operate for DCI (although the buzz is they may be getting the 30 328Jets from ACA). Were they to operate for DCI, they do not operate any aircraft for Midwest Airlines greater than 70 seats, so again, no issue.

Next to American Eagle in LAX. All of the codeshare flights with the DL code are operated with AE Saab340s (well less than 70 seats) and AE has no aircraft greater than 70 seats. In all actuality, even though Delta lists the AE flights on its 'Delta Connection' carrier page in Sky, I believe the agreement with AE does not technically fall under the DCI scope clause as AE is operating under its own colors... the flights are not operated solely on behalf of DCI.

TysV

 

[Vortilon]

Man, why are you so bitter?

The pilots did not furlough us, the company did. No amount of pay concessions on their part will bring furloughs back...our old positions are related to flying airplanes, not pay rates.

The pilots signed a contract with a no furlough clause which the company has exploited to the best of their ability. No contract is perfect and this was the first no-furlough clause DAL has had. DALPA has done and (is doing) their best to defend it. The only other group with a nofurlough clause of any type was UAL and it was unfortunately renegotiated in bankruptcy to the tune of 2000+ on the street. DAL pilots pay is capped at 5 hours less than normal since we're on the street. Thats $18,000 off the top salaries, $6,000 a year off the lowest salaries.

As for COBRA being a pittance, each furloughee requires approximately $8400 a year in COBRA payments. Thats over 8.4million a year. I know you're good at math but I'll do this for you, thats over $1,000 a year from the each working pilot. Some pay less, others pay more. Technically, not all of us are on COBRA any more so the responsibilities are less for each working pilot.

To be fair and balanced, there will always be people that only look out for themselves and everyone has their reasons. I'm sure there are furloughed guys that think the senior folks should sacrifice so that we may have jobs again...there are senior folks that probably wish they could pick up more time so they can raise their earnings and have a bigger retirement but can't because of the furloughs. Thats human nature. I have no idea how connected I'll be to the plight of the most junior when I am number 30 on the list and looking forward to retirment. Just as I can't put myself in anybody else's shoes but mine right now.

You obviously have some issues with "senior" pilots so I'm probably wasting effort typing any of this. I think, though, the casual observer can see we have a strong group committed to Our Airline and Each Other.

 

[bafanguy]

DaveGriffin,

Well,Sir, it's hard to tell what stake you have in the DAL furlough situation. But, if you're a DAL furlough, I'm sure the "seniors" are really glad that, in return for their generosity given at any level, they get name calling and sarcasm in return.

The airline business ain't the Boy Scouts; welcome to the real world.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Last time I checked, it was management that furloughs pilots. ......So let's put the blame for furloughs where it belongs--on management and the market itself.

Last time I checked ALPA signed the contract which included a FM clause. It's not anyone's fault othet than the muderous al Qaeda a **holes and their supporters.

The pilots will accept the final annual hourly increase which was part of the contract. They must also accept the triggering of the FM clause and the fact that they have 1,060 furloughees to deal with.

 

[Vortilon]

The PILOTS voted for the contract....the PILOTS salaries are DECREASED when there are furloughed pilots.

To quote Dr.Evil, "You just don't get it, do you?"

We can, however, agree on the fact that those 19 hijackers were definitely ***holes

 

[Xfr8dog]

I have no idea what my last post meant. It was my buddy Cliff posting with my Avatar.... must have forgotten to log out at work....

 

[350DRIVER]

The pay concessions will not bring these 1060 back, what will is the potential growth that DAL will aquire in the near future. This is why they need to put a stop to outsourcing of mainline routes and jobs. They cannot allow the replacing of mainline equipment for the smaller RJ's on the more profitable routes or none of the furloughed guys will ever return. This pilot group is one very strong bunch and they will agree to no paycuts until the books have been fully reviewed and from those findings the cuts will be taken as needed, no immediate rush is needed. D- If I were you I surely would be pulling for these guys or you are gonna be stuck for a long long time where you are at present day, just simple reality.. .. This bleeding is not nearly as bad as some would make it out to be. There was a reason why the 300+ million was done via the bond sale a few months back. Don't count them out anytime soon...

Just remember who you are owned by....


____________________________________________________

NEW YORK, April 29 (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines (NYSEAL - News) may have to rehire 1,060 pilots laid off after the September 11, 2001 attacks at a cost of more than $100 million annually, the Wall Street Journal said on Thursday.



The move comes as a result of an arbitration panel ruling that furloughed pilots could return to their jobs should the airline see its passenger numbers return to the level Delta had before the disaster, the Journal said.

The No. 3 U.S. airline this week told its airline pilots union that the carrier had reached passenger levels that could trigger the rehiring from December 2003 through March 2004, the Journal said, citing people familiar with the matter.

Delta just barely reached the volumes that would trigger a pilot recall, the Journal said, and the pilots' union and airline may ask the panel that decided the rule for clarification on the data, the Journal said.

The pilot rehiring would cost the airline about $115 million in annual wages, excluding benefits, the Journal said.

A Delta spokesman acknowledged giving the data to the pilots' union, the Journal said, but declined to discuss the data.

A Delta representative could not be immediately reached for comment by Reuters.

 

[Rotorhead]

Re: Not quite...

Not entirely accurate. ACA signed a contract with DAL in the spring of 2000 to operate as a DelCon carrier. DALPA and DAL signed the current PWA with the said 70 seat restriction in the summer of 2001 (not 100% sure on the date, only 100% sure it was AFTER the ACA/DAL deal). ACA had no restrictions as to how it chose to operate in our CONTRACT with DAL. DAL is the one who got themselves in a bind by negotiating multiple contracts that didn't resolve........the said rules and limits were not in place for our contract with DAL.

House_X:

Don't go shaking your finger at DAL; ACA knew the rules and limits placed upon them by the mainline pilot scope clause. They elected to ignore them or face the consequences. Obviously, the consequences in this case are the loss of DCI services.

TysV

 

[ifly4food]

The rumors Spongebob started are pure flamebait.

There has been no proposal for the furloughees to fly CR700s at this time made to either the ASA nor Comair MECs.

At the very least, they would have to tell our reps that it's going to happen, even if they don't ask permission. This has not occured.

Additionally, it would require the mainline pilots to enter negotiations for a CR700 pay rate, which has also not happened.

 

[wms]

The rumors Spongebob started are pure flamebait.

There has been no proposal for the furloughees to fly CR700s at this time made to either the ASA nor Comair MECs.

At the very least, they would have to tell our reps that it's going to happen, even if they don't ask permission. This has not occured.

Additionally, it would require the mainline pilots to enter negotiations for a CR700 pay rate, which has also not happened.

The trigger has been hit, that part is not a rumor. What DAL will do with the pilots is only speculation until the actual plan is announced.

DAL can put 700s on ML, either new or existing, or put those furloughess at DCI, but I don't see that happening without some kind of merger.

No matter what happens I hope it's good for everyone, including the company. In the mean time there's no sense in waving flags on a gossip board until we know what the plan is.