Inter-Service Rivary

[JungleJett]

I think with the advent of JDAM, there is less need (or development) for a true CAS airplane like the A-10. I am not saying the A-10 is not a valuable asset and indeed is probably the best true CAS airplane ever built plus it is the airplane I would have chosen if given the chance.

Am I way off here? I am an Airlifter after all!

There needs to be a balance for sure. But where is that balance?



As a side note: I stand corrected on doubting Mr. Griffins affiliation with such a fine organization as the SEALS. It is unfortunate that he injects personal opinion with little to no basis of fact to back it up. It would be like me saying the SEALS are really not that good at what they do...when SF, Delta and the like can do the same job. I know different.

 

[stonewall]

There is a legimate argument to be made that the USAF should put more resources into air-to-mud and less to air-to-air.

But that argument does not include childish name calling. And of course anyone who has ever really been around an MC-130 crew knows that nobody cares more about being on time and on target than those guys.

95% of our time and energy goes into A-G. A-G tactics, weapons, coordination, comm, you name it. I spent over 3 yrs in OT, and our entire focus my last 1.5 yrs was minimizing the "kill-chain" time. Yes, the F-22 costs a ricockulous amount of money. However, money doesn't necessarily indicate where our efforts are focused. Contrary to popular belief, the F-16 and F-15E are still flying. We spend a ton of time (and cheddar) on targeting pods, NVGs, JDAM, SDB, HMCS, Link 16, and a ton of other stuff ALL designed to support the bro on the ground.

And, since Dave shows his age, he needs to understand that, YES, I would rather be looking at the picture through a SNIPR pod than my own eyeballs, especially at night. I can freeze the picture, area track, point track, target IR markers, target laser markers, you name it. And, yes, Dave, I can put a JDAM within 3 feet of said track. If I was on the ground, I'd rather have a B-52 with a Litening Pod dropping a JDAM from 30K than an A-10 dropping a slick Mk-82 from 1500'. I know which one will be more accurate. Dave doesn't.

There is a time and place to let loose from 100' with the cannon. The A-10 will always be the best at that. However, the other 98% of the time, a JDAM will do the trick. And you know what, Dave? That JDAM doesn't care if he's dropped at 3K or 30K. Get used to it. What we do now is much better than anything we did in 'Nam, or DS, or any other conflict. CAS and AG IS OUR PRIORITY...DON'T LET THE RAPTOR BLIND YOU.

 

[Gorilla]

95% of our time and energy goes into A-G. A-G tactics, weapons, coordination, comm, you name it. I spent over 3 yrs in OT, and our entire focus my last 1.5 yrs was minimizing the "kill-chain" time. Yes, the F-22 costs a ricockulous amount of money. However, money doesn't necessarily indicate where our efforts are focused. Contrary to popular belief, the F-16 and F-15E are still flying. We spend a ton of time (and cheddar) on targeting pods, NVGs, JDAM, SDB, HMCS, Link 16, and a ton of other stuff ALL designed to support the bro on the ground.

And, since Dave shows his age, he needs to understand that, YES, I would rather be looking at the picture through a SNIPR pod than my own eyeballs, especially at night. I can freeze the picture, area track, point track, target IR markers, target laser markers, you name it. And, yes, Dave, I can put a JDAM within 3 feet of said track. If I was on the ground, I'd rather have a B-52 with a Litening Pod dropping a JDAM from 30K than an A-10 dropping a slick Mk-82 from 1500'. I know which one will be more accurate. Dave doesn't.

There is a time and place to let loose from 100' with the cannon. The A-10 will always be the best at that. However, the other 98% of the time, a JDAM will do the trick. And you know what, Dave? That JDAM doesn't care if he's dropped at 3K or 30K. Get used to it. What we do now is much better than anything we did in 'Nam, or DS, or any other conflict. CAS and AG IS OUR PRIORITY...DON'T LET THE RAPTOR BLIND YOU.

Good post Magnum. The air/mud guys have enough to do without checking 6 for the Air-Air threat. OCA cleanses the playing field, as do the guys who fill what used to be called the Weasel role.

Several layers must be wiped out before CAS will work... Command and Control, enemy air to air, enemy surface to air, and MANPAD must at least be somewhat suppressed or countered before CAS will become effective.

By utilizing modern technology, effective CAS can be generated at high altitudes, negating completely the MANPAD / small arms threat, and much of the lighter SA missile action. It's not a "manliness" issue, it's an effectiveness issue. The AF does what works, not what "looks tough" to the grunts, whom I admire completely.

The German soldiers in WW2 on the Western front felt the full weight of allied air/mud, and that was only possible because the Luftwaffe fighters had been crushed. "Where is the Luftwaffe?" was the question of the day for those guys.

 

[JungleJett]

Both great post. From a laymans point of view, I would assume you would not want to roll in on a target while looking over your shoulder to see if someone is rolling in on you. Hopefully the Raptors have taken care of that.

I cannot think of a single action in the past 60+ years where USAF CAS has not been incredibly effective or absent. (minus Somalia.....but that is a whole nother story).

Look at history Dave and show me where the USAF has been absent or been ineffective in the CAS role (that THEY developed).