Instrument Procedure Question

[Hobiehawker]

On many GPS approaches there is a racetrack pattern outside the FAF. On the government charts there are distance marks (what I have seen usually 4nm) on the end of the outbound and inbound legs. On the Jepp charts they are not there. On a Garmin 430 it shows the racetrack.

Can you do normal timing as is any approach in this procedure or is there a distance requirement. My guess is that the depicted pattern is the protected area and as long as you stay inside that area you are ok.

Anyone have any input?

Thanks for all response.

 

[CX880]

On many GPS approaches there is a racetrack pattern outside the FAF. On the government charts there are distance marks (what I have seen usually 4nm) on the end of the outbound and inbound legs. On the Jepp charts they are not there. On a Garmin 430 it shows the racetrack.

Can you do normal timing as is any approach in this procedure or is there a distance requirement. My guess is that the depicted pattern is the protected area and as long as you stay inside that area you are ok.

Anyone have any input?

Thanks for all response.

I'm pretty sure that pattern is actual size since the 430 is IFR certified. What does it say in the manual? But really you should be doing the pattern on your own anyways, you will not always have a garmin 430 when you need to do a hold.

 

[Lynxman]

Give us an example of an approach to look up?

 

[Hobiehawker]

An example would be KORL RNAV (GPS) RWY 7

http://www.airnav.com/airport/ORL

Then download the chart towards the bottom of the page.

Thanks

 

[J.Otto]

An example would be KORL RNAV (GPS) RWY 7

http://www.airnav.com/airport/ORL

Then download the chart towards the bottom of the page.

Thanks

This particular approach requires a 4 NM leg outbound from the IAF when necessary. The requirement is depicted both pictorially and provided in a note found in the profile. Timing would then not be appropriate.

You said Jepp doesnt have this noted. Do you have a Jepp version of this approach? was it current?

 

[Lynxman]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say your not instrument rated yet. What you are seeing is a hold in lieu of a procedure turn so that you can get established on the inbound course. There is no timing in this hold you simply turn when your distance read off the 430 is 4NM from Esraq. At any rate your doing a course reversal so your just going to do the entry to the hold and once your established inbound then you continue in. Unless of course you need more time for whatever reason then you can do some laps in the hold. BTW I'm sure you know this, but just in case you don't fly the CDI; please don't fly off of the mini airplane and depicted pattern on the GPS screen.

 

[Hobiehawker]

The 4nm is not on the Jepp chart. Neither is the note. But it is, obviously, on the FAA chart. Which is the basis of the question.

Are you required to fly the outbound leg to 4nm before turning inbound for course reversal? Where as precision and non-precision are most often based on time unless depicted. And it would be equally as depicted on both the Jepp and FAA charts.

I bring up the Garmin 430 only because it looks like the pattern is about 4nm also.

I am instrument rated but consider myself always a student of aviation.

 

[HSDriver]

The Jepp chart does show 4 miles for the pattern if you look at the profile view of the approach.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Yep. And so it does. I was so focused on the racetrack I didn't look at the profile close enough. I am now rather certain you need to fly to the 4nm point. I wonder why?

Thanks for all who have participated.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yep. And so it does. I was so focused on the racetrack I didn't look at the profile close enough. I am now rather certain you need to fly to the 4nm point. I wonder why?

Why not? This is a GPS approach - that means you always know how far from a waypoint you are. So instead of timing the holding pattern and adjusting and readjusting and readjusting to create that 1-minute leg, you just have a nice simple distance. That's standard for GPS holds. Doesn't that just make sense?

 

[Brasilia Pup]

The 4nm point is the LIMIT of protected airspace for the hold. Do not exceed the 4nm. You can turn inbound in less than 4nm and proceed with the approach.

 

[Jrparne]

Be careful with the term limit. The aim states to use the dme or gps determined distances if they are charted instead of timing. If it says 4 miles you turn at 4 miles. If the approach is running as a gps approach the gps will tell you to conduct the turn at 4 miles, turning early can screw things up down the road.

Yes it is the aim and its recommendations, but in the training setting the aim takes precedence on checkrides...

 

[atpcliff]

This is like a Procedural Track. I have flown with a number of professional (paid) pilot who wanted to turn "early" and not follow the track. I told them that their idea is wrong. It is NOT protected airspace. It is a TRACK and you the approach is designed for you to follow the track as closely as possible.
It is also like a 1 minute holding pattern. You turn at 1 minute, not at 30 seconds.
In the above description 4 miles is NOT the protected airspace. When you turn AT four miles, as depicted, you plane will go OUTSIDE of 4 miles during the turn, as the people who designed the approach planned for your to do. The protected airspace will extend safely beyond the turning radius of your aircraft, which may be very large, for an airplane requiring a fast speed on the approach.

 

[stupidpilot]

This is like a Procedural Track. I have flown with a number of professional (paid) pilot who wanted to turn "early" and not follow the track. I told them that their idea is wrong. It is NOT protected airspace. It is a TRACK and you the approach is designed for you to follow the track as closely as possible.
It is also like a 1 minute holding pattern. You turn at 1 minute, not at 30 seconds.
In the above description 4 miles is NOT the protected airspace. When you turn AT four miles, as depicted, you plane will go OUTSIDE of 4 miles during the turn, as the people who designed the approach planned for your to do. The protected airspace will extend safely beyond the turning radius of your aircraft, which may be very large, for an airplane requiring a fast speed on the approach.

Not necessarily true. You may turn early because the protected airspace left and right of the inbound course is large enough to encompass the airspace you would be in if you turned inbound early. It would be the same amount of lateral protection when performing the straight in approach.

 

[Jrparne]

But why turn early, a gps approach is to be flown as the gps says. It will wait until you are at the 4nm limit to tell you to change track. It is taking into account far more information in determining when and where to turn then you can compute. No where on the gps procedure does it say stay within "4nm" like they do with procedure turns. The procedure turns give you the flexibility to turn early, its a limit, this is not a limit this is a design.

 

[Lynxman]

There is no reason to turn early at all.

 

[stupidpilot]

There is no reason to turn early, I agree. But you are not breaking any rule by doing so. The whole airspace encompassed by the holding pattern is protected and surveyed for obstacles.

 

[NCherches]

Vectors to Final.... problem solved.

 

[Lynxman]

Vectors to Final.... problem solved.

Ya buddy!

 

[A Squared]

This is like a Procedural Track. I have flown with a number of professional (paid) pilot who wanted to turn "early" and not follow the track. I told them that their idea is wrong. It is NOT protected airspace. It is a TRACK and you the approach is designed for you to follow the track as closely as possible.

So, tell me, is there anything which would legally prevent you from turning to your 45 degree out bound leg on procedure turn immediately after passing the IAF, and only flying 45 seconds out bound at a 45 instead of a minute?

I'll save you some trouble, answer is no. So given that the only function of the racetrack pattern is course reversal, what, legally, prevents you from flying the reversal a little closer in. And what would be the practical rationale behind such a regulation?

It is also like a 1 minute holding pattern. You turn at 1 minute, not at 30 seconds.

You got a reference for that? What regulation would you be violating? I can't think of one. When you consider that the purpose of a hold (as opposed to a racetrack reversal on an IAP) is to park you so you're not progressing forward, and you don't stray into rocks, or the path of another plane, I'm having a herd time imagining that it would make anykind of real difference to anyone who matters is you used 30 second legs in lieu of 1 minute lags.