instrument instructor question

[cforst513]

is there such thing as an MEII? or if you have a multi add-on and are a CFII, does that automatically qualify you for teaching instruments in a ME airplane?

 

[kj6991]

No. If you have a CFII and just a regular MER, then your not capable of giving instrument instruction in a twin. to do this, you need an MEI.

 

[phishhman]

No. If you have a CFII and just a regular MER, then your not capable of giving instrument instruction in a twin. to do this, you need an MEI.

I respectfully disagree. I posed this question to inspectors at 4-5 FSDOs and got the same response (the same response as on the FAQ page of the Airman Certification division webpage). It is this: You CAN give instrument instruction in a twin with only a CFI/II and a Comm Multi (no MEI), as long as you aren't doing multi-specific training. As long as you aren't failing engines, you are fine. Just make sure you are teaching instrument procedures, not multi procedures. Once you start dealing with single-engine approaches and holding, you need an ME.

 

[phishhman]

is there such thing as an MEII? or if you have a multi add-on and are a CFII, does that automatically qualify you for teaching instruments in a ME airplane?

There is no such thing as an MEII. The CFII on your ticket will say "Certified Flight Instructor - Instrument Airplane. It doesn't differentiate between SE and ME.

 

[HMR]

FAR 61.195(b) & (c)

 

[minitour]

This one caused us about 2 months of discussion at the school and no one could come up with a hard answer.

The reg says (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

To me it says if you're doing it in a ME airplane, your CFI certificate has to say "Airplane Multiengine" on it...

-mini

 

[phishhman]

Then why, if 61.195 says that, does my instructor certificate say "Instrument - AIRPLANE?" Not, Instrument - Single Engine

 

[TDTURBO]

I agree with Minitour,



Becuase the regs further clarify the difference.


You can't put everything on a pilots license. just no room, I would go with what the reg say's.

 

[minitour]

The only really compelling argument I've heard towards the "yes you can" side was
"My certificate only says "Instrument Airplane", so what can I teach in?

That's a dilly of a pickle for the "no" argument eh?

I say just make it a no-brainer and get the MEI

-mini

 

[phishhman]

I say just make it a no-brainer and get the MEI

Best advice so far. I have my job, but still wish I had the MEI. Personal acheivment kinda thing.

 

[minitour]

Best advice so far. I have my job, but still wish I had the MEI. Personal acheivment kinda thing.

The more I hear people say that, the more I want to get it...

...kinda like the degree (here we go - this was a dumb comment) thing...do I need it? Not really...but for me I kinda like the idea of achieving it...

...more boxes to check...the same reason I got the AGI/IGI...kinda a "why not?" thing

-mini

 

[HMR]

I just renewed my CFI this weekend (did the whole thing in 5.5hrs online ) and this is one of the topics covered in the AOPA/JEPP material. According to their interpretation you can give ME instrument training if you're a CFII and have a Multi-engine rating on your commercial license. It's on page 4-6 paragraph 3 for those of you who have the Jepp material.

Look at 61.195(f): If the instrument training is for a certificate or rating in a ME aircraft, you need to have at least 5 hours PIC in that make and model (i.e. Beech Duchess doesn't count for a Seneca or Baron). I remember when one of my Duchess students bought a C340 he let me get 5hrs PIC in it so I could help him towards his commercial. I already had time in C414's, 421's, and 441's BUT none in a C340.

PS-get the MEI. It's soooo worth it.

 

[phishhman]

Here is portion of the FAQ from the FAA website and the link to the document is just above the copied text:

http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

It is located about 3/4 or more down the document under the 61.195 gray box.

QUESTION: What are the privileges held by a CFI - Instrument Airplane “only” (no single or multiengine rating) on his CFI with respect to instructing instrument procedures in a multi-engine airplane. He has multi-engine rating on his commercial certificate. Can he, while instructing instruments, simulate engine failure? Can he demonstrate VMC? Can he simulate engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of VMC? Etc.



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f); Per § 61.193(f), a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to give training and endorsements that are required for, and relate to an Instrument‑Airplane rating. And per § 61.195(f), in pertinent part, states a flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane. These sections 61.193(f) and 61.195(f) are the only regulatory requirements that even remotely addresses your question.



Since training on the Vmc maneuver and procedure is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may not give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.



Since the training on the simulating engine failure during takeoff prior to 50% of Vmc is not a task associated with the Instrument-Airplane rating, a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may not give the training required for that maneuver and procedure.



However, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f) that apply. There is nothing that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating and has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane per § 61.195(f) from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument‑Airplane rating.



Likewise, there is no regulatory requirement in Part 61, other than § 61.193(f) and § 61.195(f), that legally prohibits a person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating from giving the training required for the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” because the maneuver and procedure on “One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)” is a task associated with the Instrument‑Airplane rating.



Unfortunately, Part 61 and every other rule does not regulate judgment! I can't imagine an owner of an aircraft or an insurance company ever allowing rental of their multiengine airplane to a person who does not hold an airplane multiengine rating on his/her flight instructor certificate when that person intends to give training on engine inoperative maneuvers.



The following are the areas of operation and tasks that relate to an Instrument‑Airplane rating. A person who only holds a Flight Instructor-Instrument Airplane (CFII) rating may provide training on the following areas of operation and tasks that are associated with an Instrument-Airplane rating:



I. Preflight preparation

A. Weather information

B. Cross-country flight planning

II. Preflight procedures

A. Aircraft systems related to IFR operations

B. Aircraft flight instruments and navigation equipment

C. Instrument cockpit check

III. Air traffic control clearances and procedures

A. Air traffic control clearances

B. Compliance with departure, en route, and arrival procedures and clearances

C. Holding procedures

IV. Flight by reference to instruments

A. Straight-and-level flight

B. Change of airspeed

C. Constant airspeed climbs and descents

D. Rate climbs and descents

E. Timed turns to magnetic compass headings

F. Steep turns

G. Recovery from unusual flight attitudes

V. Navigation systems

Intercepting and tracking navigational systems and DME arcs

VI. Instrument approach procedures

A. Nonprecision instrument approach

B. Precision ILS instrument approach

C. Missed approach

D. Circling approach

E. Landing from a straight-in or circling approach

VII. Emergency operations

A. Loss of communications

B. One engine inoperative during straight-and-level flight and turns (multiengine)

C. One engine inoperative—instrument approach (multiengine)

D. Loss of gyro attitude and/or heading indicators

VIII. Postflight procedures

Checking instruments and equipment

{Q&A-457}

.........AND.........​

QUESTION: A person holds a Flight Instructor Certificate-Instrument Airplane only and wants to conduct an Instrument Proficiency Check in a multiengine land airplane (for example in a Cessna 310). The Instrument Proficiency Check will require the flight instructor to test the pilot on Emergency Operations - Loss of Communications, One engine inoperative during straight and level flight and turns (Multiengine), One engine inoperative-instrument approach (Multiengine), and Loss of Gyro Attitude and/or Heading Indicators.



What are flight instructor certificate and ratings, pilot certificate and ratings, and qualifications the person must have to be in compliance with § 61.195(b) and (c)? Does the flight instructor have to have logged 5 hours of PIC flight experience in the Cessna 310?



ANSWER: Ref. § 61.195(b)(1) and (c) and (f); The person must hold at least the following:



Flight Instructor Certificate Commercial Pilot Certificate

Instrument-Airplane Airplane Multiengine Land


Instrument-Airplane



or



ATP Certificate

Airplane Multiengine Land




The person must have logged at least 5 hours PIC flight time in a Cessna 310.


{Q&A‑640}

 

[PC12Cowboy]

SO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lmfao

 

[Ralgha]

The FAQ is wrong, it says itself that it's not infallibale. See post #6 by Mini for the appropriate verse from the regs.

The only really compelling argument I've heard towards the "yes you can" side was
"My certificate only says "Instrument Airplane", so what can I teach in?

Short answer: nothing. Long answer: You can teach ground, and also in simulators/FTDs.

Then why, if 61.195 says that, does my instructor certificate say "Instrument - AIRPLANE?" Not, Instrument - Single Engine

Look at your pilot certificate, it says the exact same thing. Does that mean that someone with an instrument rating but no multi-engine rating can fly a multi-engine airplane as long as they never look out the windows? Pretty silly isn't it?

 

[Goose Egg]

...kinda like the degree (here we go - this was a dumb comment) thing...do I need it? Not really...but for me I kinda like the idea of achieving it...

At the risk of dismembering an already dead and beaten horse, I think that's the best reason ever to get a degree.

-Goose

 

[JB74]

This one caused us about 2 months of discussion at the school and no one could come up with a hard answer.

The reg says (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

To me it says if you're doing it in a ME airplane, your CFI certificate has to say "Airplane Multiengine" on it...

-mini

Yes, but what if you aren't giving instruction for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR".

We had a discussion on this a while back and couldn't come up with an answer.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=36628

 

[Ralgha]

Yes, but what if you aren't giving instruction for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR".

We had a discussion on this a while back and couldn't come up with an answer.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=36628

Then you don't need an instrument instructor rating at all, but if it's going to be loggable instruction of any kind, toward a rating or not, then you have to have a CFI rating for that cat/class of airplane.

Anyone can "instruct" anyone else in the operation of an airplane, but if it's going to count as real instruction (logged, recognized by anyone), then it has to be done by an appropriately rated CFI.

 

[bobbysamd]

MEI Rating

The more I hear people say that, the more I want to get it...

...kinda like the degree (here we go - this was a dumb comment) thing...do I need it? Not really...but for me I kinda like the idea of achieving it...

...more boxes to check...the same reason I got the AGI/IGI...kinda a "why not?" thing

Exactly, for every reason you gave, and for the same reaons one needs a degree - that doors will open if you have it.

The MEI is really nothing more than a Commercial Multi ride out of the right seat. Of course, the rub is you need the fifteen hours of multi PIC pursuant to 14 CFR 61.185(j), but look at it this way. You have already logged X hours of multi PIC from your checkride. Figure that you will need three to five flights to get the maneuvers down from the right seat, including approaches, and to feel really comfortable in the airplane. That would be another five to six hours. So, yes, you'll have to fly off the rest before you can take the practicals, but not all of the hours up to the fifteen will be wasted.

I would do it if I were you.

 

[groundpointsix]

The reg says (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

To me it says if you're doing it in a ME airplane, your CFI certificate has to say "Airplane Multiengine" on it...

-mini

I disagree mini-

I have to have an instrument rating on my flight instructor certificate. That's covered by my CFI-I

I also have to have my pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating. That's my commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating.

No where (assuming you copied and pasted all the pertienent regulations because it's almost 1am and I'm too lazy to look for myself) does it say my flight instructor certificate has to have the appropriate category and class rating for the purpose of instrument instruction.

That said, I wouldn't go around giving instrument instruction in a twin just because I could. (Though the multi-time would certainly be appealing). There's the safety issue involved. Something goes wrong and suddenly you're having to work through a single-engine scenario with the student and oh wait, you're not an MEI. You can't legally teach the student how to deal with an engine out scenario and if you don't have an MEI but you're still flight instructing, chances are you don't have a heck of a lot of multi-time and experience yourself. (General you, not directed at you, Mini)

Also, what does the regulation say about requiring 5 PIC make and model for instruction in twins? Is it strictly limited to instruction for the multi-rating? Or is it instruction for any rating in a twin?

Legal? probably, so long as nothing goes wrong. Safe? no.