instrument instructor question

[Ralgha]

No where (assuming you copied and pasted all the pertienent regulations because it's almost 1am and I'm too lazy to look for myself) does it say my flight instructor certificate has to have the appropriate category and class rating for the purpose of instrument instruction.

I re-read Mini's post and he actually missed the nugget that really says it.

Here it is:

61.195
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.


And no, this bit is not referring to training for aircraft ratings, which is a popular misconception. The next paragraph (c), that Mini quoted, states in the body of the text, that it only applies to training for ratings and certificates. This paragraph has no such statement. It covers all flight training and is referring to aircraft ratings that the CFI is required to have.

 

[HMR]

61.195
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

I disagree. If someone is going for their ME ticket, that's an "aircraft rating" and must be done by an MEI.

(from FAR 1.1)RATING-means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, privileges, or limitations.

If a ME rated pilot needs help with GPS approaches in his new Baron, he's not going for an "aircraft rating" or "training required for a certificate or rating". A CFII with a CMEL rating would be able to provide the training.

 

[nosehair]

If a ME rated pilot needs help with GPS approaches in his new Baron, he's not going for an "aircraft rating" or "training required for a certificate or rating". A CFII with a CMEL rating would be able to provide the training.

This person teaching the use of a GPS need not have any pilot or flight instructor certificate. The certificates mentioned in all of these certification regulations always pertain to training for certificates or ratings or recurrency or some such certification or regulatory required training.

GPS, aerobatics, mountain flying, P-51 flying, aaaaaaany other kind of flying instruction or training need not comply with aaaaaaaaany of these cerification rules. period. end of story.

 

[JediNein]

FAQ = FAA Policy

Here is portion of the FAQ from the FAA website and the link to the document is just above the copied text:

http://www.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

It is located about 3/4 or more down the document under the 61.195 gray box.



{Q&A-457}


{Q&A‑640}

Those questions are there because they stopped an FAA investigation into my flight instruction. FAA policy is that in the FAQ. Many of the questions have been through Legal Counsel before being posted in the FAQ. If you do receive an inquiry from an ASI about something you did while following the published FAA policy document, Part 61 FAQ, refer the ASI to the FAQ. If that doesn't stop the inquiry, refer the ASI to his/her manager, and the manager to John Lynch. Mr. Lynch's numbers are on the FAQ.

If you are sitting back/jump seat instructing two rated pilots on the use of their GPS, no certificate or medical is required. If you are occupying a pilot seat, then the required certificates are Instrument Instructor-Airplane and either Commercial + appropriate ratings or ATP-appropriate ratings. Only the ATP+appropriate ratings work if the GPS instruction is part of one's duties in a part whatever operation.

Pay close attention to the FAQ answer to Question 640. If the Instrument Instructor-Airplane is occupying a pilot seat in a twin, the instructor must have 5 hours of PIC time in that twin, even for GPS instruction to rated pilots.

Don't like it? Change the FAQ answer before not complying with this policy. It is very expensive to be FAA Legal's test case before the NTSB, even with AOPA's legal insurance.

In the early portion of the FAQ document, there is a listing of where the FAQ stands in FAA guidance and policy documents in order. The FAQ is listed above Advisory Circulars.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[nosehair]

If you are sitting back/jump seat instructing two rated pilots on the use of their GPS, no certificate or medical is required. If you are occupying a pilot seat, then the required certificates are Instrument Instructor-Airplane and either Commercial + appropriate ratings

...so, you're saying...I can't hire Bill Gates to sit in my right seat of my personal airplane and teach me how to use his new "MegaFlite 9000"?

Of course I can.

The FAQ answer is to the regular everyday working instructor who is logging the time as PIC and therefore should have all the pertinent ratings - that is who the FAA can shove around 'cause they hold power over him with the threat of certificate action, and because he is logging PIC time.

Otherwise, if you are not acting in any way as a pilot/flight instructor, merely as an advisor with technical knowledge in a personal flight, the FAA has no power over you.

Having said that, I also know that if you do have a certificate, you may need to have lots of money for legal assistance to hold on to what is rightfully yours.

 

[groundpointsix]

I re-read Mini's post and he actually missed the nugget that really says it.
QUOTE]

I change my stance then. It would appear you cannot give instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI.

 

[JediNein]

I re-read Mini's post and he actually missed the nugget that really says it.
QUOTE]

I change my stance then. It would appear you cannot give instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI.

AOPA fought hard to prevent multiple instrument instructor certificates. They won. Instrument instructor applies to "airplane", not number of engines. They also fought to prevent two certificates needed for instrument instructing in twins.

Start at the beginning, read all the way through, and this time stop at Pphishhman's post.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[bender]

MidLifeFlyer over at Jetcareers posted an excellent reply to this same question about a year ago. It reads:

This is a question that comes up from time to time and the common wisdom has been that a CFI with only an "instrument airplane" rating, but no "airplane" rating is permitted to provide instrument training in an airplane, so long as he doesn't cross the line into teaching how to fly the airplane itself.

From Jeff's post, even John Lynch's Part 61 FAQ has taken this view, saying such things as a CFII with no MEI =can't= give training in one-engine failure during takeoff but =can= give instruction in single-engine operations under instrument conditions.

Finally, as a result of an inquiry by Ron Levy, an instructor at the University of Maryland and a regular contributor to Aviation Safety Magazine, the Eastern Region FAA legal counsel has started the process of putting that one to rest.

The ultimate answer is, no, a CFII with a commercial single and multi (No MEI) can =not= I give instrument instruction to a student in a Multi-engine aircraft who already has his private multi.

The response for the counsel is posted below. It takes a bit of wading to get through it since it goes off on a completely different question. The pertinent part appears in the final few paragraphs.

==============================
JAN 6 2004

Capt Ronald B. Levy
Director, Aviation Sciences Program
University of Maryland Eastern Shore
30806 University Boulevard South
Princess Anne, MD 21853-1299

Dear Capt. Levy:

This responds to your request for an interpretation of 14 CFR § 61.195 pertaining to the providing of instrument instruction. You have raised your disagreement with information contained in the FAA web site maintained by flight Standards (specifically, AFS-840) where answers are provided to frequently asked questions (FAQs). We apologize for the delay in providing this response to you and appreciate your patience.

Your question concerns the response given on the Flight Standards website (http://www1.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAO.doc) in “Q&A-249.” The question posed and the answer from AFS-840 are as follows:

QUESTION: The flight review requirements of § 61.56(a) requires [sic] 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training which includes a review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 and a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate. If the person getting the flight review holds an Instrument-Airplane rating on his certificate does the review have to be given by a CFI-IA and include instrument procedures such as radial intercepts, approaches, etc.? Can a CFI-A (but no Instrument-Airplane rating on his CFI) give the flight review to the instrument rated pilot and can that CFI cover any instrument maneuvers such as those that might be given to a Private pilot under 61.107?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.193 and § 61.195(c); You're incorrectly mixing up the flight review requirements of § 61.56(c) with the Instrument Proficiency Check § 61.57(d). They are two separate requirements. But if you're asking whether a CFI-ASE only can administer the Instrument Proficiency Check of § 61.57(d), the answer is no. The flight instructor must hold a CFII-Airplane rating to administer the Instrument Proficiency Check of § 61.57(d). {Q&A-249}

We view, as the response acknowledges, the above dialogue as involving two distinct matters. The first concerns the requisite qualifications of the person conducting a flight review under 14 CFR § 61.56(c). Section 61.193(g) provides that a flight instructor, within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings, may conduct the flight review. Since maneuvers and procedures necessary for the flight are at the instructor's discretion, see 61.56(a)(2), they need not include instrument maneuvers and procedures. The flight review may be combined with an instrument proficiency check if warranted, see 61.56(h), in which case the instructor must hold the appropriate authorization, see 61.57(d)(2)(iv), 61.195. Accordingly, the person conducting the flight review need only have instructor-airplane privileges (CFI-A). Instrument instructor qualifications (instructor-instrument/airplane, or CFI-IA) are not necessary, even if maneuvers are performed “under the hood” since a flight review is not flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or type rating, see 61.195(c).

The second matter concerns the requisite qualifications of the person conducting the instrument proficiency examination under 14 CFR § 61.57(d). Since the proficiency check is an operation related to instrument flying, under 61.193(f) an instructor-instrument rating (CFI-IA) is needed, even though the proficiency check does not constitute training toward an instrument or type rating (see 61.195(d)).

Considering the context of the response, we do not read it as indicating that a CFI-A may give instrument training in flight without holding instrument authorization (CFI-IA) as per § 61.193. Flight training is defined as training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft (14 CFR § 61.1(b)(6)). Training can only be logged if provided by an instructor authorized to provide the specific training. Any instrument procedures conducted with a CFI-A during a flight review may be appropriate at the discretion of the instructor but do not qualify and may not be logged as training.

Your related question deals with the qualifications to provide instrument training corresponding to the category and class of the aircraft. As you point out, § 61.195(b) provides, “A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold: (1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and (2) if appropriate, a type rating.” You have indicated that some persons hold the belief that the possession of a CFI-IA authorizes the holder to provide instrument training without regard to the class rating held, a belief you do not share.

In construing § 61.195(b), we must rely on the plain language since it appears to be unambiguous and we are not aware of any agency-condoned practices that deviate. Section 61.195(b) refers specifically to category and class, as you have pointed out. The category of aircraft is airplane, but the class can consist of, for example, single engine, multiengine, land, and water (sea), as defined in 14 CFR 1.1. As provided in 61.195(b), to provide flight training, the instructor must bold both a pilot certificate and a flight instructor certificate with the category and class rating applicable to the training being provided. For example, an instructor must hold a pilot certificate and an instructor certificate, each with an airplane multiengine instrument rating, to give instrument training in a twin airplane. We do not construe Q&A-249 as indicating any other position.

I trust that this response satisfactorily answers your question. Should you need any further clarification, please contact Stephen Brice in this office at 718 553-3268.

Sincerely,

Loretta E. Alkalay

==============================
Scott Dennstaedt, a CFI and writer out of Maryland, followed up with John Lynch. Part of Lynch's reply to Scott:

==============================
Looking at § 61.195(c), I now believe my answer is wrong and Ms. Alkalay's answer is correct. Because, per § 61.195(c), it states: ". . . must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided."
==============================

Another answer of his that responds to a similar question posed:

Quote:

and why I am still confused as to why the FAA will issue a CFII with no aircraft rating on it at all.


​

The CFI-I with no aircraft rating can do instrument ground instruction and instrument training in a sim/FTD while still pursuing a flight instructor, rather than ground instructor path.

 

[ParrotheadPilot]

This is just a small tangent from the topic. I have been a CFI for 14 months (CFII for just a month) with 350 some odd hours of dual given. 61.195 (h) pertains only to first time CFI applicants. I can still give instruction to, and sign off at the appropriate time, an Instrument instructor applicant who already holds a CFI, correct? Since he already has his initial CFI, I don't believe I have to comply with the 24 month rule of holding a CFI certificate specified in 61.195 (h) (2) (iii). I assume I am able to give this instruction, right?

 

[minitour]

yep...thats for an initial flight instructor...so you're good to go

-mini

 

[ParrotheadPilot]

yep...thats for an initial flight instructor...so you're good to go

-mini

Thanks mini

 

[Ralgha]

Bender, you're awesome. I've been looking for that interp for a long time.

 

[Ralgha]

AOPA fought hard to prevent multiple instrument instructor certificates. They won. Instrument instructor applies to "airplane", not number of engines. They also fought to prevent two certificates needed for instrument instructing in twins.

Start at the beginning, read all the way through, and this time stop at Pphishhman's post.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

You're right, you only need one instrument instructor rating. However you still need an instructor rating for the cat/class that you'll be teaching in as well. That's not multiple instrument instructor ratings. Your one instrument instructor rating applys to any and all airplane ratings on your CFI certificate, just like the one on your pilot certificate (the wording is identical).

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Just make sure you are teaching instrument procedures, not multi procedures. Once you start dealing with single-engine approaches and holding, you need an ME.

How can you possible fly a MULTI ENGINE AIRPLANE and not teach multi-procedures?

From the FARs (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

It is simply spelled out YOU MUST HAVE A MULIT RATING ON BOTH TICKETS. There is no way around it PERIOD!

 

[HMR]

How can you possible fly a MULTI ENGINE AIRPLANE and not teach multi-procedures?

From the FARs (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

It is simply spelled out YOU MUST HAVE A MULIT RATING ON BOTH TICKETS. There is no way around it PERIOD!

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

 

[bender]

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

The long answer is look at 61.195(b)
The short answer is you have to have a MEI

 

[DC8 Flyer]

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

Then its not instruction and you are just acting as a safety pilot.

I dont say that to belittle it is simply a clarification. Instruction implies loggable time by both parties. If I have a ASEL Commercial Instrument ticket and a CFI I cannot take my friend up and put him under the hood and then log dual received in his logbook for the time required for an instrument rating but HE can log instrument time towards the total instrument time required for his rating. I can of course log dual given.

Same thing applies if you have a ASMEL Instrument Commercial Ticket with a CFI and CFII ticket. Of course you take someone up who has a Multi-Engine rating of some kind and do safety pilot stuff, but if that person does not have any multi-engine ratings that person cannot log anytime with you. You on the other hand can log all the time as PIC but not dual given. There is no benefit to someone who has no multi-engine ratings flying with some who has ASMEL Inst Comm CFII, they cannot log the time and the rated pilot can only log PIC. Thus NOT INSTRUCTION.

The question and intent was: Can someone who does not have and MEI but has a CFII and a ASMEL Inst Comm ticket give instrument instruction? No they cannot, because the regs require you to have both category and class on both tickets to instruct in that category and class.

The regs used to not specify category and class on the instructor ticket and that is where this little urban legend comes from, it wasnt too long ago that it was changed either.

 

[HMR]

The long answer is look at 61.195(b)
The short answer is you have to have a MEI

Thanks for the reg. See post #5 on this thread.

 

[HMR]

DC8 Flyer- Until recently, I was in complete agreement with your above post. I understand your point. After reviewing the AOPA & Jeppesen explanations I've been leaning more towards what JediNein said.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

DC8 Flyer- Until recently, I was in complete agreement with your above post. I understand your point. After reviewing the AOPA & Jeppesen explanations I've been leaning more towards what JediNein said.

The problem is, Jeppesen and AOPA dont make or enforce the regs, either does the NTSB.

To me its simple, you just cannot give instruction in a twin, no matter if its IFR or VFR, instruction meaning logging dual instrument time for issuance of a rating, unless you have an MEI and CFII.

The quirky thing is you can get your CFI and MEI then get your CFII in a single engine airplane and never have to demonstrate proficiency in teaching instruments in a twin, I think .

Unless someone can post a ruling by a judge where someone had been violated by the FAA for giving instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI I stand firmly by my, and most others, belief. Thats not to say Im not wrong but I wouldn't be willing to test it on my certificate/career. Besides if you are not an MEI are you really qualified/safe to be giving instruction in a twin?