instrument instructor question

[ParrotheadPilot]

yep...thats for an initial flight instructor...so you're good to go

-mini

Thanks mini

 

[Ralgha]

Bender, you're awesome. I've been looking for that interp for a long time.

 

[Ralgha]

AOPA fought hard to prevent multiple instrument instructor certificates. They won. Instrument instructor applies to "airplane", not number of engines. They also fought to prevent two certificates needed for instrument instructing in twins.

Start at the beginning, read all the way through, and this time stop at Pphishhman's post.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

You're right, you only need one instrument instructor rating. However you still need an instructor rating for the cat/class that you'll be teaching in as well. That's not multiple instrument instructor ratings. Your one instrument instructor rating applys to any and all airplane ratings on your CFI certificate, just like the one on your pilot certificate (the wording is identical).

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Just make sure you are teaching instrument procedures, not multi procedures. Once you start dealing with single-engine approaches and holding, you need an ME.

How can you possible fly a MULTI ENGINE AIRPLANE and not teach multi-procedures?

From the FARs (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

It is simply spelled out YOU MUST HAVE A MULIT RATING ON BOTH TICKETS. There is no way around it PERIOD!

 

[HMR]

How can you possible fly a MULTI ENGINE AIRPLANE and not teach multi-procedures?

From the FARs (61.195):

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

It is simply spelled out YOU MUST HAVE A MULIT RATING ON BOTH TICKETS. There is no way around it PERIOD!

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

 

[bender]

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

The long answer is look at 61.195(b)
The short answer is you have to have a MEI

 

[DC8 Flyer]

What if the instruction isn't for "the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR"?

Then its not instruction and you are just acting as a safety pilot.

I dont say that to belittle it is simply a clarification. Instruction implies loggable time by both parties. If I have a ASEL Commercial Instrument ticket and a CFI I cannot take my friend up and put him under the hood and then log dual received in his logbook for the time required for an instrument rating but HE can log instrument time towards the total instrument time required for his rating. I can of course log dual given.

Same thing applies if you have a ASMEL Instrument Commercial Ticket with a CFI and CFII ticket. Of course you take someone up who has a Multi-Engine rating of some kind and do safety pilot stuff, but if that person does not have any multi-engine ratings that person cannot log anytime with you. You on the other hand can log all the time as PIC but not dual given. There is no benefit to someone who has no multi-engine ratings flying with some who has ASMEL Inst Comm CFII, they cannot log the time and the rated pilot can only log PIC. Thus NOT INSTRUCTION.

The question and intent was: Can someone who does not have and MEI but has a CFII and a ASMEL Inst Comm ticket give instrument instruction? No they cannot, because the regs require you to have both category and class on both tickets to instruct in that category and class.

The regs used to not specify category and class on the instructor ticket and that is where this little urban legend comes from, it wasnt too long ago that it was changed either.

 

[HMR]

The long answer is look at 61.195(b)
The short answer is you have to have a MEI

Thanks for the reg. See post #5 on this thread.

 

[HMR]

DC8 Flyer- Until recently, I was in complete agreement with your above post. I understand your point. After reviewing the AOPA & Jeppesen explanations I've been leaning more towards what JediNein said.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

DC8 Flyer- Until recently, I was in complete agreement with your above post. I understand your point. After reviewing the AOPA & Jeppesen explanations I've been leaning more towards what JediNein said.

The problem is, Jeppesen and AOPA dont make or enforce the regs, either does the NTSB.

To me its simple, you just cannot give instruction in a twin, no matter if its IFR or VFR, instruction meaning logging dual instrument time for issuance of a rating, unless you have an MEI and CFII.

The quirky thing is you can get your CFI and MEI then get your CFII in a single engine airplane and never have to demonstrate proficiency in teaching instruments in a twin, I think .

Unless someone can post a ruling by a judge where someone had been violated by the FAA for giving instrument instruction in a twin without an MEI I stand firmly by my, and most others, belief. Thats not to say Im not wrong but I wouldn't be willing to test it on my certificate/career. Besides if you are not an MEI are you really qualified/safe to be giving instruction in a twin?

 

[DC8 Flyer]

If a ME rated pilot needs help with GPS approaches in his new Baron, he's not going for an "aircraft rating" or "training required for a certificate or rating". A CFII with a CMEL rating would be able to provide the training.

Thats acting as a safety pilot and not as a CFII, since the person needing help with GPS approaches would already hold a AMEL Instrument ticket.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Then why, if 61.195 says that, does my instructor certificate say "Instrument - AIRPLANE?" Not, Instrument - Single Engine

Ill post it again:

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any AIRCRAFT for which the flight instructor does not hold:

(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which instrument training is being provided.

Category:

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a broad classification of aircraft. Examples include: airplane; rotorcraft; glider; and lighter-than-air; and....

Class:

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft within a category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon; and

So, by your logic, you could find someone who is really rich and give them instrument instruction in a Premier Jet, as long as they had a VFR only single pilot type rating?

 

[bobbysamd]

Instrument instruction demo in a twin

The quirky thing is you can get your CFI and MEI then get your CFII in a single engine airplane and never have to demonstrate proficiency in teaching instruments in a twin . . . .

I didn't have to on my MEI ride. I've not heard of others, either.

Perhaps the way to analyze it is that instrument instruction includes such things as BAI, holding, radio navigation, holding and normal approaches. When you, as an instructor, pull an engine for such things as approaches with an engine inoperative, it becomes multiengine instruction.

Think about it. You (or at least me) are coaching your student, "mixtures forward, props forward, throttles forward, identify, verify, feather," etc. after you've pulled an engine. Pulling engines is multiengine instruction and beyond the scope of instrument instruction. Only MEIs should pull engines; non-MEIs have no business pulling engines.

I agree that legally one must also be an MEI as well as CFI-I to give instrument instruction in a twin. I realize that these discussions turn on the desperate need to build multi. But you have to do it legally and not on the edge of legality.

 

[HMR]

I didn't have to on my MEI ride. I've not heard of others, either.

Same here.

I realize that these discussions turn on the desperate need to build multi. But you have to do it legally and not on the edge of legality.

Absolutely. This goes for all the "can I log PIC/SIC?" threads too. For the CFI's looking for twin time: get the MEI. I've never met a pilot who's regretted having it. I never could've gone from a 152 to a piston-twin to a turboprop to a turbojet without it. The time I spent instructing in the Duchess, Seneca, C340 and King Airs was invaluable. I learned more than I taught.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I didn't have to on my MEI ride. I've not heard of others, either.

You are absolutely right, my apologies. Its been too long since I took either checkride and read either PTS I had the Comm Multi and MEI requirements backwards.