Initial DAL pilot deal details

[surplus1]

It looks like the new limit on 70 seaters is 125. For every increase in 10,000 Company block hours, DCI can add a 70 seater up to 150. The limit on carriers flying other than permitted aircraft types for other than delta has also been lifted. I don't know how this will effect ACA's DO328's, but it looks like they can continue to fly them for delta if the agreement remains.

Interesting. As always, the devil is in the details.

 

[CF34-3B1]

It looks like the new limit on 70 seaters is 125. For every increase in 10,000 Company block hours, DCI can add a 70 seater up to 150. The limit on carriers flying other than permitted aircraft types for other than delta has also been lifted.

Great, here comes Mesa............

 

[DDpaysoff]

Never mind.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Great, here comes Mesa............

Sigh. What a crappy business.

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

It seems Delta management keeps bumping scope limits ( with DALPA's consent ) just in time to keep current orders rolling. While Skip Barnette repeatedly mentioned the possibility of the 25 airplanes being converted to -700's and that these airplanes were needed in ATL he did not give away anything that he knew this was going to happen ( must be a great poker player ).

He did mention quite a bit about ALPA's J4J being tied to scope concessions on the CRJ700 and that a deal was in the works. Given that this did not happen, I am left to conclude that the ( currently unconfirmed ) reports we heard that the RJDC litigation stopped the J4J provisions tied to the -700's is correct.

If the RJDC litigation is performing its intended goal of changing ALPA's behavior - good. The second step is for the Delta MEC to achieve what they want by working with the Comair and ASA representatives on proper terms to secure protections for Delta pilots who wish to fly at DCI. I would think getting rid of the rediculous first year pay for those coming over from Delta would be a first.

I will not deny that I am pleased that ASA has a good shot at these -700's. But even I can see that something needs to be done for your pilots - something to end the rediculous war between union members. Unfortunately your MEC keeps screwing up by approaching this in a predatory fashion. Cooperation would have worked five years ago without the furloughs.....

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

Fins,


I really don't know exactly what the MEC has offered in the TA, but I did read somewhere that our furloughs have to be offered jobs (probably FO jobs) in those new CR7s. I may be wrong on that, but I thought I saw that. I don't know if the RJDC litigation did anything to sway the final outcome of the TA. I always thought that there would be an addition to the CR7s, since they are better aircraft than the 50 seat RJs.

As far as what will happen with our current furloughs, I have a feeling there will be some sort of recall, at a slower rate, and that same rate may increase if we have a large exodus of pilots retiring, which may very well happen. Dec 1st looks like the time most will jump ship, but I would guess 75-100 will leave by Monday.

I have always said there is a place for RJs, and certain routes do deserve them. But, there are also certain routes (like all of the long ones from DFW) that obviously did not work. It will be interesting to see where Delta places your new CR7s. (if you get them) (Didn't Grinstein say no RJ flights over 2 hours???)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[73belair]

I don't know that its the "range" that is the best part of the crj700. But the fact that it burns somewhere around 500lbs pr hr more than the 50 and can seat 20 more people. Plus it goes faster and higher.

 

[TonyC]

Tony C,


Simmer down now, ya hear? You are wrong on many fronts. First of all, I have been an advocate for our furloughs since they were furloughed. If you didn't know that, then you have NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION. I have been doing whatever I can to try to get them hired at DCI temporarily, I have stressed the importance of insuring their prompt return, and even TBKANE knows that. Don't make me look like the bad guy here, it makes you look stupid. Ask Fins and all of the other people on this board. You are wrong and I have always thought of them FIRST.

...


Bye Bye--General Lee

Oh, I know, you always SAY you want them back, but ...

Post Retirement Pilots was NOT the only solution to the senior pilot exodus problem, but you supported it. Tell us how eliminating the no furlough clause during bankruptcy (part of that LOA) affected that problem.

Taking a 32% pay cut hurts you, but not as much when the CAP is raised. How does raising the CAP help the furloughees?

How does removing the No Furlough clause (part of this deal) stave off bankruptcy?


Indeed, you always SAY you want them back, but ... actions speak louder than words.



.

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


That No Furlough Clause would have been lost in any Chap 11. Our MEC knew that. It was a lost cause. The only way to ensure less furloughs or to ensure our recalls to come back faster was to make sure we "funneled" our senior guys out the door. How could we do that? By giving them a "drop dead date" of Feb 1st for their lump sums. Sure, by doing that we had to make sure we didn't park the fleet by having the guys all leave at once. The only way to solve that was to give a "LIMITED" time that some senior pilot could stick around, until he/she is replaced. Do you want to know who actually is overlooking this process? The IRS. Yes, the tax man. They were brought in to make sure senior guys were not "double dipping"---and if they get their lump sum---they can't come back after Dec 31st of 2005. That was a good way to ensure no extra furloughs and that the recalls would continue in some form. This situation is not easy, and I want all of the furloughs to come back as soon as possible. I thought that retirement TA would help, and it will, eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[e120pilot]

Tony C,

This was a concessionary deal. The sole purpose was to reduce pilot costs. This was accomplished by reducing pay rates and changing work rules. Delta can't afford to have an agreement that doesn't give them more productivity. This stinks for the furloughees, but hopefully this will allow Delta to be more competitive in the future.

 

[JohnQ]

Taking a 32% pay cut hurts you, but not as much when the CAP is raised. How does raising the CAP help the furloughees?

Because we live in a capitalist, free-market society where only the most efficient survive. In the short term raising the cap hurts the furloughees--that is obvious. In the long term, more efficiency means more profits, more growth, and ultimately MORE JOBS REQUIRED than all the artificial caps, manning formulas, etc., ever did.

Think of it this way. In the U.S., where you can hire and fire at will, the unemployment rate is 5.5%. In France, it is 11%. You know what the French government has mandated? A maximum 35 hour work week. They (and apparantly you) will tell you with a straight face that the 35 hour work week has alleviated unemployement, "spread the pain," etc., completely missing the broader point that the 35 hour work week is part of the CAUSE, not the solution to, a high unemployment rate.

SWA and FedEx pilots figured that out years ago--and neither group has ever furloughed. How many volunteer and draft trips go out every day at your carrier? Some may say "we are costing jobs," etc., but in fact you are enabling efficiencies that CREATE more jobs than any artificial restriction on flying ever did.

That is my editorial commentary for the day.

 

[DAL737FO]

JohnQ,

The elemination of the CAP is absolutely going to hurt us furloughee's. Lines are going to be built between 72-82 hours, however a pilot will have the ability to fill up to the FAR's. There will be plenty of pilots doing exactly that to offset the 32.5% paycut. So once again we are our own worse enemy. Right now they do not know how many less pilots will be required under PBS. Their guess right now is between 200-300 pilots. I was one of the guys that actually believed JM when he said all seniority groups will give with no one group giving more, however looking at the negotiator notepad I don't see how anyone can say that with a straight face. I had been slated to return either January or February after 2 1/2 years on the street. The company now has the ability to delay recalls by double the original time. So if they wanted to stay on their original timeline of 30 a month they could now wait until June 2006 before starting to recall again. The only thing that could help us guys on the street out is a huge chunk of retirements in the next couple of months.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[michael707767]

JohnQ,

The elemination of the CAP is absolutely going to hurt us furloughee's. Lines are going to be built between 72-82 hours, however a pilot will have the ability to fill up to the FAR's.

Ok, lets keep the facts straight. This TA sucks and the scheduling sucks, but they cannot fill up to the fars. Lines will be built between 72-82 hours. You can white/yellow slip up to 15 hours above thats months line value, not to the far limits.
Michael

 

[michael707767]

. I was one of the guys that actually believed JM when he said all seniority groups will give with no one group giving more, however looking at the negotiator notepad I don't see how anyone can say that with a straight face.

I was also one who believed that the paid would be equal. I also think the junior pilots and in particular the furloughed pilots, are going to bear the brunt of the scheduling section.

I will be voting no. I will not be a party to the selling out of one Delta pilot.
Michael

 

[JohnQ]

JohnQ,

The elemination of the CAP is absolutely going to hurt us furloughee's. Lines are going to be built between 72-82 hours, however a pilot will have the ability to fill up to the FAR's. There will be plenty of pilots doing exactly that to offset the 32.5% paycut. So once again we are our own worse enemy. Right now they do not know how many less pilots will be required under PBS. Their guess right now is between 200-300 pilots.......


I had been slated to return either January or February after 2 1/2 years on the street. The company now has the ability to delay recalls by double the original time. So if they wanted to stay on their original timeline of 30 a month they could now wait until June 2006 before starting to recall again. The only thing that could help us guys on the street out is a huge chunk of retirements in the next couple of months.

B-727 Freight Dawg

Look, I understand your point of view--completely! I have not been furloughed, nor even displaced, so I am the first to realize that it is easy to say "raise the cap," etc. when I am hardly directly affected. I hope you are recalled as scheduled...

That said, you have to live in the real world--again easy for ME to say. You cannot say "United Plus" (which was one of our slogans in C2K) in the good times and completely ignore them in the bad. Want UALs concessions? They have 2000 guys on the street, caps between 89-95 hrs, and NO DUTY RIGS! They literally have 2-3 day trips paying less than 10 hours. AMR has 2600 guys on the street, with 400 more due in January. How do we compete? I consider it a great achievement on our negotiators parts that we kept most of our duty and trip rigs intact.

And as I once told a guy, if every DAL pilot refused to fly GS (for non-Delta guys, that means greenslip, which is premium pay overtime flying), I am convinced that it would not result in the recall of one furloughee one millisecond earlier than he otherwise would have. It is profits, and profit-enabled growth, not artificial caps and manning formulas, that will bring all the furloughees back. That is the essence of capitalism. Of course, that is fine and good in an academic discussion. When you are furloughed from your dream job, and your soon anticipated return date is most likely delayed (or even done away with), such discussions mean nothing.

And FYI, I have only flown 2 GS in the past 8 years, last time four years ago. I will not fly one with guys on furlough, which is a personal decision I came to a long time ago--acknowledging that conflicts with everything I have just said!

I truly wish you the best--which means back on the property ASAP, keeping guys like me in line!

 

[~~~^~~~]

You guys know more than I do, but several junior FO's that consume beer & dead cows with me seem to think Delta might have to hire in the not too distant future. One friend got bumped back to the 737 and 727 a couple of times, he is going to the 767 now and his movement has been up this year. He says that quite a few guys are passing on the recall as well.

Being furloughed does absolutely stink and lets hope there are options for you soon.

 

[michael707767]

You guys know more than I do, but several junior FO's that consume beer & dead cows with me seem to think Delta might have to hire in the not too distant future. One friend got bumped back to the 737 and 727 a couple of times, he is going to the 767 now and his movement has been up this year. He says that quite a few guys are passing on the recall as well.

Being furloughed does absolutely stink and lets hope there are options for you soon.

short term with all the retirements there has been upward movement. Once this TA is in place, with potential flying up to 97 hours, all upward movement will stop for a couple of years. I bet we will actually move backward some, with another 3-400 furloughs. That's a no vote from me.

 

[G4G5]

The new Delta TA states the following:
"Increased authorization for RJ70s up to a potential of 150 total. Preferential hiring for furloughed Delta pilots at carriers flying the additional 70-seaters, and preferential Delta interviews for pilots of those carriers."

From what I understand that is an additional 75 - RJ70's that can be flown.

 

[spanky2]

...some notes from the 32.5 TA:

A reduction in rates of pay of 32.5% effective 1 Dec. 2004

o Reduction in International pay to $6.00 for Captains and $4.00 for First Officers

o Reduction in night pay to $10.50 for Captains and $7.50 for first Officers

o Reduction in per diem to $2.50 international and $2.10 domestic

o No set increases in any form of pay through the amendable date of 31 Dec. ‘09

o Possible pay increases tied to non-pilot pay being increased for a substantial portion of

the employees at Delta and quantified for pilots based on pay at competitors. This

section is complicated and more information will be forth coming.

o New pay rate for B-737-900 (INTERESTING !)

o Lowered the B-737-700 rate to match rate for the B-737-300 (INTERESTING !)

o Blended pay rates for reserve guarantee. Currently, this only affects the MD88/90

categories but could expand if Delta combines fleets.

Improved protection in fragmentation, sucessorship / acquisition, profit/loss

arrangements, and branded scope.

...and on the scope front ... for "Fins" "Inclusive Scope" "XRM" and others at DCI (who will now add the Delta MEC to their prayers every)

o Agreed to complete Alaska domestic code-sharing agreement as soon as possible

following the framework developed for the NWA/CAL arrangement.

o Revised minimum block hours of mainline flying and minimum percentage of all flying

for the mainline

o Increased authorization for RJ70s up to a potential of 150 total. Preferential hiring for

furloughed Delta pilots at carriers flying the additional 70-seaters, and preferential Delta

interviews for pilots of those carriers.

o Modification of the no furlough clause to allow furlough but not below staffing required

under PBS and in general only with 90 days advance notice.

o Eliminated furlough recall schedule, except that all currently furloughed pilots are to be

recalled NLT 1 Aug 2008

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

ALL those 70's should come to ASA/CMR and ALL of the furloughs should be able to get first shot (if they would like it) until mainline calls them. Period. It is not like they ASA is having trouble finding pilots, but family first.

 

[michael707767]

Ok, I have seen the actual TA. The reference to 70 seaters in the scope section as "certificated" for 70 seats has been changed to "configured" for 70 seats. It also say the 70 seat jet must have a max certified takeoff weight of 85,000lbs.

So, it would seem that, yes, the E-170, configured with 70 seats, can be flown by DCI.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Talking to a few of the USAir ramp guys on D-block, they are none too happy with the E-170. Many problems. Had one a few weeks a go took two days to start it.

 

[Speedtape]

Was the language lifted that restricts 70 seat flying--to only Delta Wholly Owned Subs?

 

[Speedtape]

How much does a C.P.A. make?

 

[michael707767]

Was the language lifted that restricts 70 seat flying--to only Delta Wholly Owned Subs?

It does not specify. It just allows the code sharing on up to 150 total RJ70s

 

[CF34-3B1]

Was the language lifted that restricts 70 seat flying--to only Delta Wholly Owned Subs?

It looks like any one can and probably will bid on the future 70's.

"Ohhh, we'll fly em for a box of Rice Crispies and a Green card. Gotta get that 1000 PIC yanno......."

 

[Tim47SIP]

I also believe that if the 70's are in fact comming, and Delta furloughees get first shot at an FO position as they should, then there should absolutely be NO interview! Period. I also feel that they should NOT start at first year pay either. Date of hire pay should be the case but DCI Date of hire for seniority purposes. Hopefully this will open dialogue beween ASA/Comair and DALPA. Things need to change, and change for the better.

 

[CF34-3B1]

I also believe that if the 70's are in fact comming, and Delta furloughees get first shot at an FO position as they should, then there should absolutely be NO interview! Period. I also feel that they should NOT start at first year pay either. Date of hire pay should be the case but DCI Date of hire for seniority purposes. Hopefully this will open dialogue beween ASA/Comair and DALPA. Things need to change, and change for the better.

I agree, and it seems like a lot of ASA guys feel that way.

A defacto flowback into the right seat of a CRJ at DAL DOH pay using ASA or CMR pay scales. I doubt it will happen, but I think it's the right thing to do. I hope we can find a way to make it work (If there really is to be a delay in recalling all the furloughed guys)

The whole reason only a handfull of furloughed guys are currently at ASA is the pay. I have a bunch of furloughed friends who would love to fly RJs as their furlough job, but they have a family to provide for, and 1st yr ASA pay only works if you live in your mom's basement.

Any DAL guys spoken with their reps about getting language to that effect inserted in the TA?

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

CF,

As much as that makes sense to us (some), at this stage of the game I would believe nothing is going to get changed. There would have to be 'studies', 'evaluations' etc. We are just the 'little people', and I'm not talking about DCI, regional pilot type language. I mean from the corporate structure. The people in the red brick building on Virginia Ave. ALL of the pilot groups are subject to the little people label in this example. Basically everyone who does not wear a suit to work. We don't have the big picture. The bottom line right now is "Okay boys, here it is, yes or no".

 

[CF34-3B1]

CF,

As much as that makes sense to us (some), at this stage of the game I would believe nothing is going to get changed. There would have to be 'studies', 'evaluations' etc. We are just the 'little people', and I'm not talking about DCI, regional pilot type language. I mean from the corporate structure. The people in the red brick building on Virginia Ave. ALL of the pilot groups are subject to the little people label in this example. Basically everyone who does not wear a suit to work. We don't have the big picture. The bottom line right now is "Okay boys, here it is, yes or no".

I think you're right. Most of my friends at DAL have told me they're voting no, even though most of them seem to think the TA will pass.

I wish there were a way we could ensure that when Greenjeans replaces more mainline routes with RJs, we could have furloughed guys flying them.


Best of luck to all involved.