Informal poll for the IR's: do you fly single piston in IMC?

[USMCmech]

To answer your question with another question,

Which do you feel is safer?

Single engine IFR, Or scud running to fly in marginal VFR?

I would rather be up in the clouds, than running just underneth them only able to see 120 seconds ahead of me.

Discuss.

 

[tathepilot]

I suppose you might call that a statement of irony.



1.You do know that your messages are very difficult to read, don't you? Typing lessons, perhaps even some basic language lessons might be in order. Never the less...

2.Do you have difficulty interpreting your airborne weather radar in your single engine piston engine airplane?

3. Your attitude is what betrays you as inexperienced. Your total hours are also irrelevant, as they have little if anything to do with experience...

4.your manner of language, your approach, your attitude, and your understanding speak loudly of inexperience, and that much you do a poor job of hiding. Seeing as you brought it up.


5.Why don't you tell us all about him?

1.yes, so ive heard.. actually i could go for a few lessons, english was never my strong point.. do you know of any teachers.?

2. none. and normally i don't have one in the singles.

3. my attitude is what it is.. whether its here, or im in my attorneys office closing a real estate deal, its the same..

4. blah, blah, blah.. a know it all, is a know it all no matter what.. actually i like ********************ing with people and i have seem to do a great job of it with you.. i cant argue with you because you know everything.

5. what's to tell, read the forums.

i will still bring up a fact....

calling someone who flies seimc foolish is strictly a matter of opinion, it is not a fact! and i will take it as just that....

there is more on the stats which you argue about, and i feel you are wrong.. but trying with you is like that dead horse thing with the stick... haha

cheers

 

[Tracom]

Single engine IFR, Or scud running to fly in marginal VFR?

I would rather be up in the clouds, than running just underneth them only able to see 120 seconds ahead of me.

Discuss.

Tough call. If the wx was that low, I probably wouldn't be out SE IMC unless I was over very friendly terrain. If I'm VFR below it, and the terrain is friendly, I could always keep a landing site in sight, which adds some options. If I had to come down through the clouds and then break out, would I have time to find a spot and make a play for it? Dunno. If those were my only two choices, I'd be at the house.

 

[tathepilot]

To answer your question with another question,

Which do you feel is safer?

Single engine IFR, Or scud running to fly in marginal VFR?

I would rather be up in the clouds, than running just underneth them only able to see 120 seconds ahead of me.

Discuss.

se-ifr.
like 'Tracom' said if the weather is that low, you prob shouldn't be out there vfr.

 

[avbug]

Which do you feel is safer?

Single engine IFR, Or scud running to fly in marginal VFR?

Would you rather be shot in the head with a .22LR, or in the abdomen with a .45LC?

Would you rather be struck in the crosswalk by a Volkswagn Beetle, or struck j-walking by a Chevy Impala?

Would you rather drink arsenic, or swallow crushed glass?

Which is safer? Running barefoot on a field of poisonous snakes, or swimming with hungry crocodiles?

How about this...weather is bad, sit on the ground and let it pass. Which is the best course of action...skud run or fly piston single engine IMC? Neither is the best course. Grab a hotel room, rent a car, wait a day, then go.

 

[VNugget]

if the weather was at or above minimums, maybe, just maybe when he supposedly lost his engine, he would have had 10 seconds to avoid what ever he hit, so that is the point..

Personally, I don't hang my life on "maybe, just maybe." Nor would I accept a 10 second radius of places to land. Oh, and what happens to these 10 seconds where the terrain elevation is higher than the airport the approach was for?

 

[tathepilot]

Personally, I don't hang my life on "maybe, just maybe." Nor would I accept a 10 second radius of places to land. Oh, and what happens to these 10 seconds where the terrain elevation is higher than the airport the approach was for?

you are correct, i don't except maybe either. there were other factors involved in the accident that we dont know about. the point was the weather was below mins, if it got that way unexpectedlyor if he launched with it that way remains to be seen.

 

[IFollowRoads]

One might well notice that the willingness in this regard generally equates to experience. Inexperienced pilots often reply that they will, experienced pilots often reply that they will not, generally speaking.

Why do you suppose that is?

Because we've been scared ********************less one time too many, and one or both of our parents have passed away, stripping away our delusions of immortality.

 

[Goose Egg]

Again, most pilots who feel single engine piston airplane instrument flight is okay, are too inexperienced to know better.

Personally, I didn't spend a lot of time in singles flying in the soup...I sat it out, went around, went under, or scrubbed the flights. Just like I do today.

Sorry, but going "under" is not any safer, in my mind, than going "through." I'd much rather be in IMC on an IFR flight plan at a comfortable altitude than be hemmed in by lowering ceilings and rising terrain yet still in VMC, and this is regardless of aircraft category and class.

In any case, regarding the original question. I will take a piston single in to IMC (since my job occasionally requires it--I doubt I'd do it of my own volition). My basic minimums: No ice, no convection, cielings over 1000' along the route, and VFR within range of the aircraft. And if it is single pilot, the airplane must have a functioning autopilot. This is a starting point, and I would probably be more conservative if there were other risk factors such as mountainous terrain or open water...

...and I look forward to the day when I don't have to do it anymore.

-Goose

 

[avbug]

Sorry, but going "under" is not any safer, in my mind, than going "through." I'd much rather be in IMC on an IFR flight plan at a comfortable altitude than be hemmed in by lowering ceilings and rising terrain yet still in VMC, and this is regardless of aircraft category and class.

I suggested no such thing.

 

[Goose Egg]

I suggested no such thing.

Good. It just sounded like you were saying something else.

In any case, I voted D, "Occasionaly, but I try to avoid it."

-Goose

 

[Bryan D]

Regarding engine failure in a single and in Avbugs defense, I had a momentary engine failure once right over the middle of the Chesapeake Bay in a Cherokee Six. My heart jumped up to my throat, every muscle in my body tensed at once and the first thought was I've got to get as close to the shore line as possible. (This was VFR) A immeadiate left turn and a quick stab (or three) at the "NRST" button on my trusty yoke mounted GPS, I switched tanks and the engine regained partial power. I made it to the airport and made a straight in without radio calls or anything. Why? well, I was afraid the engine was going to quit at any second, I didn't know the the name of the airport and I didn't know the unicom frequency (it turned out to be Melfa, VA Accomack County).
It turned out to be contaminated fuel in the outboard tanks. I was flying this plane on a ferry permit and failed to pay due diligence on my preflight. I added this to my "I learned about flying from this" category.
Yes, engine failure in a single is very scary indeed.

 

[JAFI]

Single engine storys.... I was flying a Piper C-140 with a student (who was an A&P) when we started practicing a stall series. As soon as he brought the nose up the engine quit. The WX was clear. As the nose dropped the engine started and we agreed to land and look at the engine. After engine inspection and several run ups the engine always ran fine. So we took off to continue the lesson the next day. Again after aircraft nose up, the engine quit. Again after the nose dropped it started again. Back to the airport, check for water in the tank again (no water - fuel clear of crap) snake fuel lines in the wing and check for mud wasps, no problem found. Several run ups - no problems. I decided to not take off but do some quick nose ups below take off speed. As soon as I pulled nose up - the engine quit. The mechanic said lets take off and check the fuel pump. we opened the pump to find a small split in the diaphragm. Replaced with a new part and no problems.


It can be the smallest part that can make the engine quit.How lucky do you feel today......??????

 

[avbug]

I was going to say you had either a stuck or sunk float, but that would do it too. I've seen something similiar happen with intermittant operation then sudden failure with a damaged diaphram in the fuel flow divider of injected engines. The only evidence; minor fuel seepage from the drain line...something one probably wouldn't notice on a preflight.

 

[Lead Sled]

...I've seen something similiar happen with intermittant operation then sudden failure with a damaged diaphram in the fuel flow divider of injected engines. The only evidence; minor fuel seepage from the drain line...something one probably wouldn't notice on a preflight.

That one sure brought back a few memories...
A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away I flew a Cessna 411 for a company in Las Vegas that used them to give air tours of the Grand Canyon. The company had just hung a factory remanufactued engine on it, in fact, it had just been returned to service and it was the first revenue flight. I had taken a full load of passengers to the Grand Canyon and was waiting around for the ground portion of their tour to finish up when our dispatcher called me on the phone to tell me that they wanted me to dead-head back to Las Vegas and pick up another group of passengers. Long story short, just after I had made my crosswind turn that engine did exactly what you mentioned - it suddenly just stopped. Period. It was a warm summer day at the Grand Canyon airport and the 411 wasn't known for its single-engine performance or manners.

I consider it one of those days when the angels were looking after me - the altitude that I had when the engine quit (400' to 500') was the altitude I had when I turned final. That airplane wasn't able to climb. To this day, I think that it would have been a very different outcome if those passengers that I had left behind would have been on board.

There was another interesting side to that experience. When the engine quit, I went through the engine out drill and feathered the engine then I turned back to the airport and entered downwind. I called the Grand Canyon tower and had no response. I tried two or three more times, again no response. I was getting a little miffed, when the tower controller called back and asked me to "say again". I told him that I had lost and engine and that I was declaring an emergency and returning to the airport. He told me that I was #3 emergency, following a Nevada Airlines DC-3 with an engine failure and a Scenic Airlines C-402 with an engine fire and to continue. (The Scenic 402 has the Allison turboprop conversion.) He had been on the phone talking with the center when I called. We were all basically converging on the airport at the same time. The Scenic 402 got to the airport first. I told the tower that if he couldn't clear the runway in time, I would offset and land on the parallel taxi-way. (The Grand Canyon airport just has the one runway and we occassionally used the taxiway when they did runway maintenance.) The 402 got down and cleared and I was able to land just as he cleared the runway. Just as I cleared the runway, the DC-3 came straight in, opposite direction, and landed.

Oh well, fortunately, days like that are hopefully just once in a career events.

LS

 

[Lead Sled]

Deleted because of duplicated post.

 

[nosehair]

The 402 got down and cleared and I was able to land just as he cleared the runway. Just as I cleared the runway, the DC-3 came straight in, opposite direction, and landed.

Oh, yeah, sounds like the good ol' days,,,waaay back when we used to "go out and watch the planes come in"...there was a puurrdy good chanch ya might get to see a crash.

 

[avbug]

I don't think there have been days for a very long while when merely watching at the airport means there was a good chance of seeing a crash...otherwise air crashes would be more common than car crashes, and that's just not the case.

South Rim is a special case, however. In former times, it represented one of the busiest runways in use at certain times, with no radar control. I arrived there often to find six traffic patterns in use, and full, VFR, for the same runway, and aircraft holding VFR in three different stacks. Inner and outer left and right downwinds at the same time, high and low, plus opposite direction traffic on approaches and multiple helicopter patterns in use...made it a busy place. All reporting coming and going were anouncements in the blind. It was probably some of the safest airspace, too, because everybody knew what they were supposed to be doing...and used see and avoid rather than hear and avoid.

There was a Navajo about 20 years ago out of South Rim that lost an engine. The pilot spent about 20 minutes struggling with it rather than getting back to land...and eventually shut down the wrong engine. Memory doesn't serve well, but I believe everyone was killed.

 

[JAFI]

The "Good Ole days"? I think some of it was just luck of the draw. One guy at my company (who flew the same aircraft that I did) had a half a dozen in flight engine failures while I had several on the ground. And they were just strange. He had a fuel line burst at the connector in flight when I had a prop gear box fail at shut down. Ever see a PT-6 when then prop would not move, not 1/16 of an inch? He had a engine just over temp in flight while I had a accessory gear shear off on start up. At another company whenever I flew with one pilot we had a major failure of something. Several times the gear would not go down or up. Fuel cap failed in flight and started empting fuel out of the wing. Fire indication when there was no fire. Throttle stuck at cruise. Mx had replaced it and routed it around something it just jammed on. Went to the chief pilot to request we not fly together, after listing the failures he said OK. And we got along very well, we just did not think we should fly together....

So the thought of single engine IFR... I've done it but not something I look forward to....

 

[cjdriver]

A. Been there...done that got the T-shirt.

The older I get the more I realize the folly of my youth.

Gofish, is that a Navion in your avatar? The tail doesn't look like a North American.

For my two cents, when I fly my non-ice twin in winter, I like to have 1000' ceiling and low tops with some assurance I can get on top upon departure. Than I take what she gives and deal with it. XM is definitely a requisite safety item on board. In warm weather, I have flown my wife and daughter to mins, no sweat.