Info on cabin class twins???

[BigDave]

As the good twin Cessna salesman that I am I will continue to push the 421C. A 1976-1984 421C max zero fuel weight is 6,733lbs, and max takeoff weight is 7,450 lbs. So that gives you 717 pounds of what ever you have with full fuel. Full fuel will give you an IFR range of approx: 1,000NM. As for speed, Cessna claims that the 421C cruises 29 Knots faster than a C-90 at 25,000 but that is good propaganda. What we get is 195-215 KTAS at 20,000 feet, with a fuel burn of around 50 gallons the first hour, then 40 after that. Still these figures are darn close to the C-90. Single engine climb is poor a best. As for insurance, it is bad. I fly the 421C with another pilot who has some 20,000 hours and 2300 in 421s and he still required to go to Flight Safety every year. Since I started flying the 421C about 8 months ago I was required to go to flight safety for an initial 300/400 series course, then I had to fly with the chief pilot for 50 hours. This is for a 135 operation, so the insurance requirement may be different for a part 91 operation, but I know they will require flight safety, and some dual time. Purchase cost is around $370,000 for a 76-79 421C, and then it goes up to $500,000. for 1980 421C because of the trailing link gear. The trailing link gear is nice to have, and makes most landings pretty smooth, but I do not know if it worth the
cost.
For the price you can not beat the 421. I know if your student tried to get a C-90 and fly it with an experience pilot the insurance will be much higher then a 421. Anytime you get into turbine equipment the insurance company will get you. As for the Navajo, they are nice airplanes with a high usefull load. They are stable IFR platforms and relatively cheap. But there is a reason why the Navajo is nicknamed “NAVASLOW”

 

[jrav8tor]

Again, thanks to everyone responding, it is truly helpful!

I think the King Air might be a little too steep for now. The guy has plenty of money, but also doesn't want to step into a turbine right away. I feel that will be his next airplane. Although I am surprised at the price you can get some King Air's for on www.aso.com. It would be almost worth stepping into it right away! Although if costs for maintenance for turbine is that expensive it may not be worth it to him.

As for the Baron, he wants something a little larger for comfortability. I too like Baron's, but it's not what he's looking for.

So what I am understanding is that twin Cessna's are high maintenance, high insurance, fast and comfortable, poor SE performance?? Also, tell me if I am wrong, but the Cheiftan has a larger useful load, less maintenance costs, slower, and good SE performance??

How much slower is the Cheiftan compared to the 421? Also, would the cheaper cost of maintenance offset the loss of speed? If he is looking for speed, is the maintenance $$$ difference worth going towards the 421?

I think the insurance might play a part in what he decides. I would be potentially piloting the aircraft for him. I don't have lots of time in multi right now, or anything of that size.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions!!!

 

[capt_zman]

Good info from all the posters. Here's my opinion.

I own a BE58 and it is an absolutely great airplane. It costs about half of what a King Air or twin cessna would cost and it performs almost as well. I have a 1700 lb useful load and 166 gals of fuel, which allows me to carry 4 full adults and full fuel. I have a wife and 2 children and we run to Florida about 2-3 times per month on 1 fuel stop in SC from MA. The trip takes 6 hours of flight time, which equates to about 183 kts. On many occasions, I have loaded my family and my parents (with baggage) and lifted off with 130 gals of fuel, which still gets me to my fuel stop in SC. How many piston twins can do that? Granted the trip is cramped, but the small kids don't care. My airplane is a solid 185-190 kts burning 29-30 gals per hour. Insurance ran me $3400 this year. As for single engine numbers, while single pilot, I'll get over 500 ft/min, in my heavy scenario, I'm looking at 200 ft/min.

As for King Airs, we just bought an E90 for a company and I routinely file for 240 kts. We can make the MA to FL trip non-stop, as the E90 has the extended range from the aux tanks. As for cabin, well it's a King Air and nothing beats that. The insurance for the E90 ran $17000 and myself and one other had to go to training. Overall, a fantastic airplane. As for price, we bought one of the better ones on the market and paid ~800k.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I can provide you with any number you need (operational, maintenance, purchase, etc).

 

[capt_zman]

We replied at the same time.

Anyway, nobody said the Chieftain has good single engine climbs, it absolutely does not.

As for King Airs, the maintenance can be pretty easy if you buy something decent. If you buy a hog, you'll be buying the farm as well.

The big ticket items on the King Airs are the engines (Hot sections, c and t blades, etc) and the landing gear. If all these checks are done prior to purchase, you can have a relatively maintenance free airplane between maintenance checks. A phase 1-4 will run about 15k, which is what I have paid for my last two annuals on the baron.

So, the King Air may seem out of sight or too complex, but when you crunch the numbers, I think it'll make sense.

As for you as pilot, the King Air is a piece of cake to fly. You'll have to go to initial training, but other than that it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[jrav8tor]

Zman,

Thanks for the info on the Baron, King Air, and everything else. Looking at my times and little multi (hopefully that will change in near future), would an insurance co. even look at me? If they do, what would be your best guess for $$$ per year?

Forgive me for asking nagging questions, I am just not familiar with the particulars of everything.

Thanks again for all the info!

 

[capt_zman]

They'd look at you, but you will definitely be going to training and you'll probably have to fly with a more experienced pilot for some time (anywhere from 25-100 hours).

As for price, roll the dice. It's all how you present it to the underwriters. I'd find a pilot with King Air experience and put them along with yourself on the quote. Probably the only way you're going to get anywhere.

 

[banned username 2]

As the good twin Cessna salesman that I am I will continue to push the 421C. A 1976-1984 421C max zero fuel weight is 6,733lbs, and max takeoff weight is 7,450 lbs. So that gives you 717 pounds of what ever you have with full fuel. Full fuel will give you an IFR range of approx: 1,000NM.

WHAT are you smokin???? How do you figure that: Gross Weight - Zero Fuel Weight = useful load with full fuel???

Gross Weight - BOW = Useful Load (Fuel, People & Bags)
ZFW - BOW = Max Payload

Max Zero Fuel Weight is the max load you can put in the fuselage (Max Wing Bending Weight) that isn't fuel... Basically ZFW-BOW is the maximum amount of payload you can carry...

All it is saying is that ANY weight carried over 6,733 lbs MUST be carried as fuel...

 

[jrav8tor]

Great info guys!!

Thanks again Zman! Thanks also to FalconCapt, BigDave and everyone else for the info, it was truly helpful!

Feel free to PM me with any other info you feel would be helpful.

Thanks!
Jrav8tor

 

[aero99]

The Mojave is pressurized. Not sure on the numbers, but it is a sweet looking plane. Check out aso, there are a few really nice ones there.

I would second Zman on the Baron. If you could find a pressurized 58 with the larger engines, those are screamers. I think your friend is going to be limited to what he can get by insurance if he has low hours though.

I know a guy that just bought a 421. He has a few pilots that fly for him. One has 8000 hours and the other something like 15k hours and i think he said insurance was around 10k per year AFTER sending both pilots to Flight Safety for around $6k a pop.

I would recommend your friend get with a well known broker to help with the purchase. There is no shortage of planes out there and many look to be good deals- until you find out they need over $100k in AD's or maint to be able to fly.

 

[Lonestar]

Performance Data

Try this website. You can search da#n near any aircraft and get performance data on it.

http://24.129.188.232/cgibin/SearchManufac.html