Info on BMA interview please

[exhaustgas]

Certainly not indeed,

As I said those on the other side of the coin may feel differently, and that is your god given right to express that. That is what makes this country what it is. Like I said, PERHAPS that might happen and PERHAPS it might blow over and the issue will be settled amicably, and PERHAPS something else will come about from this situation. One doesn't know. I simply stated what could happen. Hence when I said time will tell. Truth is... people on both sides of this issue suffer from the decisions and business strategy of Pan Am (Guilford Transportation), and it is a shame. Something great could have been for both PAA and BMA guys, especially in this age of prospering low cost carriers. Flowtrough, shared seniority, etc. and a friendly work environment is something that could have been, but it wasn't and that is of no fault to the employees of either of these carriers. That is all I will say on this issue, now the lawyers (not the pilots, as usual) can make a ton of cash on this whole ordeal.

 

[CrustyTWAguy]

Bma

Well this is my first post to this website.

I am a new pilot at Boston-Maine Airways.

I have read recently read all that has been said about this company and there seems to be a lot of confusion.

Regardless of what a company is trying to do, you need to stop pointing the finger at the pilots.

The pilot has no control over what a company decides to do.

I agree the pilot does have control over the decision to cross a picket line, but there is no picket line.

If there was, I wouldn't cross it.

I understand the anger and rage that accompanies what is happening. After 17 years of service with TWA, I was told that I was out of a job one day. A pilot that had been with American for 9 months was allowed to keep his though.

Rage, anger and just plain being hurt doesn't even begin to describe what I felt.

However, I didn't take it out on that new hire American Pilot.

From what I have learned, BMA and PAA have been around for the same amount of time (6 years?), and PAA could be shut down. I also was under the impression that the PAA pilots would be offered jobs at BMA if that happened.

Either way, it sucks.

The BMA pilot lists consist of mostly TWA and USair pilots who have been ALPA for a very long time.

What did ALPA do for us?

I called ALPA prior to coming to BMA. Their opinion was go ahead.

I am not sure what I hoped to accomplish with this post, except to say that I am dissapointed with seeing pilots attack eachother over this issue at such a small airline.

 

[n706us]

I would like to "tip my hat" to CrustyTwaguy. Even though I do not work for BMA, I strongly agree with what is happening at BMA. The industry must change and ALPA needs to change with it. Everybody must remember that ALPA is a business, its main job is to collect dues - nothing more/nothing else. Again, good job BMA

 

[727PAA]

TWA Guy

Hey CrustyTWA GUY,

I think you are right in that as professional pilots we shouldn't take it out on one another. I have met a few of the BMA 727 pilots and find many of them to be pretty okay guys. There is a small group though...much like Mr. N706US, captian, and megadeath that thinks this whole situation is okay, and want to justify what the BMA/Guilford/Pan Am mangement is doing to the Pan Am pilots. Yes, I said pilots...ALPA is just bargaining agent trying to help the Pan Am pilots, but, like at many other carriers it is the pilots that are going to get hurt in this. All the pilots will be hurt by this (BMA and PAA).

I realize too that there are many pilots out there that feel that they were not adequetly represented by ALPA. I am truly sorry for you and I wish most of all that the your managment at your carrier were able to do a better job of keeping you all employed and at pay rates that they helped create.

What is painful is that there are some pilots who want to take out their pain for what has happened in the past by getting revenge on another group of professional pilots that happen to also be represented by ALPA.

My hope is that we are not forced into making decisions that will hurt either pilot group. I see the best scenario as being:
1. The BMA/PAA pilot groups integrated.
2. The aircraft being all placed on the PAA certificate.
3. Our union entering negotiations to assist the company in becoming profitable, if that means some concessions then lets look at them and try to make our managment some $$$.
4. Long term job security through profitability.

Here are some facts though:

1. The Pan Am/BMA lawyers in court have said that PAA will shut down on Oct. 31. This is in effect a lock-out.
2. The courts see that as a blatent attack on the Railway Labor Act lawful rights of the Pan Am pilots.
3. PAA managment has refused for the past four years to negotiate anything in the contract. They have never even asked for concessions.
4. My posts have been an attempt to show people that if there is a lock out what kind of managment you will be asked to screw a fellow professional pilot for.

Good luck.

 

[Lightning]

Smart Pilots

I believe these pilots know exactly what they are doing and what is happing here.

 

[Go around]

I wish things were different too, but they are not to date. I have some sentiment for Crusty, however he is willing to take my job at half the pay. The pilots do have some control over what companies do when it is illegal. ALPA is fighting hard to right the wrong.

I think the BMA pilots are pawns in a scheme to get rid of the union and I believe they know it. I understand having a problem in the past with one’s representation but to use that resentment and bitterness to Knowingly harm fellow pilots at half price is unbelievable. So when I’m told to stop pointing my finger, I have a little problem with that. I just don't understand why a guy would be willing to dump on himself, his fellow pilots and his profession for substandard wages and working conditions.

 

[CrustyTWAguy]

N706us - Please don't confuse what I said with anti-unionism. I think the idea of legal representation for a group of pilots can and has been a wonderful thing in some cases. I got screwed, so what, I didn't come to BMA to simply get back at ALPA.

Go Around - I am not asking you to like me or my decisions, I just wanted to set some of the other people straight who think a BMA pilot could be black listed simply for working for a non-union carrier that is the sister company to a carrier that is having a labor dispute.

As far as pay goes, if your making twice as much as I am getting paid, then you are getting a lot of money for a small operation.

 

[boomlrd]

Do not go to BMA

I don't work at BMA nor never have, please don't jump all over me for telling you this but...... the original question about going to BMA, I wouldn't, here's why:

I work for a bottom feeder 121 op, the chief pilot and director of ops won't even consider a prior BMA pilot for hire here. I have heard only bad things about that place, and just want you to know that some other airlines may frown on your employment there. I know that Tim Mellon, and Fink are well hated in the aviation community even by other airline management not just pilots. The reasoning for not hiring anyone from BMA here - they say that any pilot that does not know what they are getting into there does not belong here. Don't get angry at me, just letting you know what I have overheard from our managment. Not worth the risk!

 

[Go around]

I’m trying to feed my kids too. I don’t believe that BMA is a Sister Company. I believe it to be a replacement company from it's inception. I know you are new there and I respect that you may not be as informed as we who have been here since its inception.

I agree with you Crusty in that the TWA guys did get screwed. Things should have never ended that way.

The pay issue was a figure of speech. When it gets to this point in our careers it’s more than just the money that counts.

I would like things to work out as 727PAA has suggested. We will all have to wait and see. I also believe that when we get to this point in our careers, we are very wise, well connected and very informed. To suggest away with a simple labor dispute analogy that the BMA guys do not know what management is doing with the so-called Sister Company, is very difficult for me to swallow. But perhaps the PR department is working overtime over there.

I don’t dislike you. I would much rather read your posts than Megadeath's or Capitan’s.

 

[Skyrider88]

Sound off

Well said Go around. I am also a mid level PAA pilot and agree with many postings here and also disagree with many. Crusty I am sorry you had the misfortune of the whole TWA expierence but please understand what your doing to us. In your post you said you called ALPA to see if it was ok to goto work for BMA. Either you are a liar or were lied to. I like to think its the latter. I also called ALPA after reading your post and not only are they NOT ok with it they are strongly emphasizing that you avoid BMA. So I dont know who you talked to but that has been there position all along, not just recently. I'm honestly not quite sure what they are telling you all, and its even scarier to think your believing what they are telling you. You are in fact taking my job away. Now so you can work your salary (and I hope they fly your a#* off for it) that is equivelant to that of an assistant manager at Mcdonalds I have to figure out how to feed my kids. That bit about all PAA pilots being offered jobs there in untrue also, but its a moot point because I know of only 1 that would go. I view you on one level as a colleuge but on another as a SCAB. I am sorry to use that word but if the shoe fits.. we are going to be locked out soon because of you guys. I cant help but think theres some irony in the fact you wear black hats and we wear white. Long live the good guys. Sleep well crusty.

 

[Lightning]

ALPA represents 64,000 airline pilots at 42 airlines in the US and Canada. That's just one union.

 

[B727Driver]

After reading these, I have to throw in my $.02 worth. I am a Capt with PAA and have been there for many years. There is one and only one objective for the creation of BMA----bust the union!!. The management team selected is loaded with Eastern scabs to spread the non-union cancer.
Points of interest:

Anyone mention the training contract the BMA pilots are required to sign (the one that is presented towards the end of sim training) $14,000. Those who believe the contract is nonenforceable, well, you will spend more than that defending yourself.

The position is one of salary. NO OT, trip rig, block or better credit or trip protection in case of cancellations. All these add up to PAA being a pretty well paying job. The downside is the benefits are not worth anything. Medical insurance is expensive, no interline benefits and the list goes on.

PAA pilots were not merging with the 'dark side' and there is no seniority at BMA. I believe the BMA pilots were told in class we would be one happy family.
Just not true.

The bottom line, you are a replacement pilot for MY JOB with a fraction of what is now in force by the ALPA contract. For all those interested in flying there, keep pushing the bar lower and lower, just don't complain that BMA sucks and the such. You have no one but yourself to blame. See you on the picket line.

 

[Go around]

Ioe

I’m curious. When does a pilot actually qualify for the heinously, despised and detested label among pilots?

Is it when,

A. You cross an active picket line. (I’m sure no one would really walk in-between guys walking in a circle. they’d probably sneak in the back door. After all who'd want their picture taken doing that).

B. The wheels stop spinning in the wheel well.

C. Your pulling down a paycheck on their active seniority list while I’m out on my can.

D. All of the above.

 

[B727Driver]

you forgot choice E.

when you apply for a job without doing your homework.

In this case, much has been said and a google search on what is happening with this company would be helpful.

type in 'pan am lawsuit', do some reading and remember, you too maybe trying to stop someone from illegally doing away with you job.

 

[Go around]

Judge rules in favor of pilots’ union in Pan Am case

A U.S. District Court judge has found that Pan Am Airlines illegally attempted to transfer its passenger service to a subsidiary airline with the intention of busting the Airline Pilots Association union and has put a stop to that process.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/10142004/news/42860.htm

 

[Lightning]

Legacy

You know it’s a disgrace that the great name of Pan Am could end up this way. A scab outfit (BMA) willing to fly around with Pan Am painted on the outside of the jet.

 

[Skyrider88]

Happy now??

Well Mr. Crusty, I hope your happy now. I got my furlough letter today because of you and the people you work with and for. This battle is FAR from over, I just hope your pleased with what youve accomplished so far.

 

[Capt_robert]

Court documents

As you are all aware, the court documents are available for anybody to read. In reviewing them, it seams to me ALPA has had over 2 years to try an stop BMA, yet you waited until they have the authority from the Feds. Is it realy Crusty fault you lost your job, I do not think so. The fault lies within. My question, is why your ALPA contract did not cover this type of alter ego airline. If I remember, other alter ego airlines were stopped because of their contracts covered such a start-up airline. I would only guess you pilots never went to management and tried to bargin on who would operate those United birds (now painted in Pan Am colors). Also, those same court documents stated that Pan Am has been losing millions of dollars, didn't ever occur to you that the owners would sooner or later would stop that type of loses. It seems to me, the owners just made the decesion.

As I have stated before on this message board, I strongly believe in the approach BM Air is taking, the airline industry is changing -- look for yourself at Delta, US Air, United, Northwest. The days of pilots making 300K and only working 6 months a year is over. Take a look at the curise line industry, all those ships are operated under a foregin flag, why? Because of the labor and unless you are willing to have all are airlines owned by foegin governments then you better take a hard look into the mirror and rethink as to why you PAA pilots lost your job.

 

[Skyrider88]

Just plain dumb.

If theres one thing I love its a good debate, or an educated response. If theres one thing I hate its speaking without knowing what your talking about. Capt Robert forgive me for saying so but your one dumb bast@#d. I beg you to read the court documnets before you speak again. BMA has ALSO lost $$. They have NEVER shown a profit and this was confirmed in court and mentioned by the judge. They are NOT switching to BMA to save $$, NO ONE at PAA makes 300 grand and works 6 mos a year, heck not even close!!!! Concessions were NEVER asked for!! A scope clause in our contract regarding alter ego airlines is irrelevant!! We won the court case without it!! You have got to either read the judges findings and rulings, the injunctions and restraining orders or shut up. Please!! It just blows my mind how ignorant you can be. Your entitled to your opinions about unions and labor. I have no quarrell with you being anti union. Just educate yourself before you make assumptions for your own sake. It makes you look like a uneducated know it all. After you have done your homework Id love to read your opinions again. Also why dont you call Mr. Fink up for a job, your the kinda guy he just loves to have in his corner. And about the 2 years part, until recently ( as in 6 months ago ) BMA was only a Jetstream and Casa hauler to compliment us not take us out!!

 

[727PAA]

As angry as I might be I will try to be civil

Captain Robert,

I am well aware as to what is in the filings, and have read everyone of them.

You say:
In reviewing them, it seams to me ALPA has had over 2 years to try an stop BMA, yet you waited until they have the authority from the Feds. Is it realy Crusty fault you lost your job, I do not think so. The fault lies within. My question, is why your ALPA contract did not cover this type of alter ego airline. If I remember, other alter ego airlines were stopped because of their contracts covered such a start-up airline. I would only guess you pilots never went to management and tried to bargin on who would operate those United birds (now painted in Pan Am colors). Also, those same court documents stated that Pan Am has been losing millions of dollars, didn't ever occur to you that the owners would sooner or later would stop that type of loses. It seems to me, the owners just made the decesion.

1. It is not Crusty's fault and I applaud him for saying he isn't anti union and wouldn't cross a picket line.

2. The airplanes that were bought by Guilford Transportation from United were not placed on the BMA certificate until July of this year. ALPA filed their lawsuit on Sept. 1st. Before they were placed on the BMA cert. there was no basis for this lawsuit.

3. There can be no negotiations with a managment that refuses to negotiate. The Pan Am managment has refused to negotiate anything for the last three years, including concessions or alter ego. If you read the judges decision he stated that you dont' need to have something in a contract that is already AGAINST the LAW!

4. The reasons that Pan Am(and BMA as well) is not making $$ is not because of the pilots. Have you seen the hodge podge of destinations/schedules etc. How many advertisments have you seen for Pan Am. How many people in Orlando or Manchester/Boston/Portsmouth knew that at one point we flew to Mrytle Beach, Allentown, Pittsburgh, etc. Try and find anyone in PSM who knows you can fly Pan Am or BMA from PSM to San Juan. If you can't put butts in seats you will never make money.
The month before the Sept. 2002 furlough we were flying from EWR to Santiago, Puerto Plata, and Santo Domingo in the D.R. Almost every flight was full....but we pulled out because the company said we weren't making any money. WELL THEN RAISE THE **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** TICKET PRICES!!! If you fly full airplanes and can't make money then you have much bigger problems!!

5. You then go on to say that we need to look why we are losing our jobs. I ask you then, what is a professional pilot worth? How much should a 12 year captain be making flying a 149 seat airplane? If you use BMA and a captain making a salary of 65k to start, with a 5% increase per year that equals 112k per year at year 12. How many days off should they have? FAA only requires 1 in 7 days, so, that would be 4.5 per month.

A 12 year Captain at PAA makes: 127.74 per hour. At the average lineholder value of 76 hrs per month that equals 116,500 per year. Is that a big difference to you? Is that too much money?

Lets try 3rd year F/O : PAA 51,200
BMA (based on 40K start) 44,100

And these dollar figures are in year 5 of a 6 year contract that was negotiated pre 9/11. If the company had an issue with our pay, why didnt' they once ask to open negotiations?

 

[727PAA]

Going on a little

PAA First year Captain: 76hrs/month 69.34/hr =63,200
BMA 65K

PAA First F/O: 76*49.93 = 45,500
PAA First F/E: 76*43.51= 39,700

76 hrs per month = 912 hrs per year. I think that is about average industry wide. So where exactly is PAA hurting our combined managements. Is it in work rules? I guess you think we shouldn't have days off, or schedules to bid on the month before. How about per diem. I guess that could be a killer huh.

 

[Megadeth]

Boo Hoo!

Well what about you yahoos scarfing 150 credit hours per month with your own people on furlough? Switching seats to max out pay while your fellow pilots are on the street? Well guess who is on the street now? Guess what goes around comes around.

 

[Stall]

Fink tryed to buy Kiwi and then Nations Air in an attempt to push this union out. He even said that the pilots would work for food after Kiwi shut down. This plan has long been in the making. If you think he just hates the union....your wrong...he hates everyone. Just ask his non union mechanics, dispatchers and office workers and not to forget the non union B&M pilots.

 

[727PAA]

Hey Megajerk

I was one of those pilots sitting out during furlough. So, how did this become my problem. I can't say that we don't have our share of problems, but, when managment won't recall people what are the folks back supposed to do.

You have to realize that the reason the first big furlough happend was to reduce the size of the union to make it easier to get rid of ALPA. You don't think managment was loving the divisions it was creating by purposely not recalling pilots. Some of our own guys bought into the $$$ and I feel it wasn't right.

If managment didn't want to lose so much money they could have recalled the correct amount of pilots to mitigate anyone flying over guarantee and give them more reserves. Obviously, they didn't care about the money and just wanted less union pilots around to fight.

Open your eyes, and stop being pissed at individuals. It is the management that is manipulating this.

 

[Stall]

Just a thought,
Imagine working for this place without a contract or legal representaion.
Here you can lose your job for not breaking the rules. You can defend your ticket when he calls the cops and says you broke the rules. You cant afford a lawyer to fight for your job back!
I wouldn't take my chances.

 

[Go around]

Suckers

Hey, quit picking on Megacrap. He and the others are still on their honeymoon with Fink. Suckers!

It's like this, if someone kicks the bucket no one can snag their birth certificate and then pretend to be them. I have heard of crooks doing this though.

 

[727PAA]

HOLD ON...I agree with Capt Robert

Captain Robert,

You stated: As I have stated before on this message board, I strongly believe in the approach BM Air is taking, the airline industry is changing -- look for yourself at Delta, US Air, United, Northwest. The days of pilots making 300K and only working 6 months a year is over. Take a look at the curise line industry, all those ships are operated under a foregin flag, why? Because of the labor and unless you are willing to have all are airlines owned by foegin governments then you better take a hard look into the mirror and rethink as to why you PAA pilots lost your job.

This is what I have been trying to say!!! Now wait a second and just listen.

You rightly state that if we should look at the cruise lines. The cruise lines operate under a foreign flag so they can use cheap labor. Now I will explain the correlation to what is happening here.

In the above posts I attempted to show that:
1. The pay difference between PAA and BMA is very small
2. The managment of both airlines is not to be trusted
3. The only real reason that BMA is flying 727's is to get around a labor contract that the managment cannot change at will.

I recently flew a flight, on which was a pilot dressed up just like Pan Am. White hat with a Pan Am logo, Pan Am wings, same uniform etc. Who is he you ask? A J31 Captain for Pan American World Airways. PAWA is a Dominican company that hires Dominican nationals (with US work rights)for less pay than BMA and they are trained by BMA under the BMA ops specs and then operate the J31's.

I also saw on the climbto350 website that on August 28th of this year. One month after BMA got the 727's on their cert. That BMA was looking to hire Dominican crews to fly B727's. They were specifically looking for pilots that were capable of working in the U.S. as well and that were bilingual.

Did you ever give a thought to perhaps the current BMA pilots are only PHASE one in this endevor. Perhaps once the PAA pilots are gone, then BMA can hire only Dominicans for less money than even the BMA guys are getting. What will be done about it then? Management will tell you...BMA is losing money guys. We just can't make it unless you take a 40% pay cut. If you don't then we have these other guys that live in the Caribbean that will do the job for less.

Sounds alot like the cruise ships doesn't it. Oh and guess what PAWA already has the white hats and Pan Am name. They don't even need to clean the Clipper Connection off the side.

 

[Go around]

Just stupid

Capt_Robert,

That is the most stupid post I have ever read in my entire life. What an idot!