Industry cycles

[mar]

All RIGHT! Now we're having a discussion!

Don't I have the skills or professionalism to make it to the airlines? I suppose one could make that point.

God knows, the older I get the less I'm willing to do what it takes to get there. But I'm still trying, even if I've significantly narrowed my field of options.

But my comments are not intended as a deliberate insult to whole group of pilots that never flew 'junk'.

My only intention was to knock off some of the varnish that dazzles many young men. It's almost hypnotic. I know. I was under the spell...and then I moved to the land of mist, mud and mosquitoes.

Nothing is shiney where I have spent the last nine years. But every now and then I escape back into the real world and I pass through SEA, ORD, JFK, DEN, LAX, PHX...and I feel like I'm walking through a hospital.

EVERYTHING is so *clean* and sterile and orderly and, yes, shiney. And I see young kids with three stripes on their shoulders flying Dash8s, ATRs, EMB's X, Y and Z and they think they've really accomplished something because they're flying PAX, 121 in turbine equipment.

After all, everyone knows, 135 piston freight is the realm of time builders, stepping stones and misfits.

My only intention was to say this: If you think going from the right hand seat of an RJ to the left hand seat of a Navajo is a step BACK, then my friend, you still have an awful LOT of learning left to do.

But those of us with stars in our eyes don't see it like that. Size matters doesn't it?

Too many pilots caught up in the image and status of the whole thing.
Too few pilots with an ATP who have "Been there, Done that, Got the nervous twitch to prove it..."

So, you meant for your post to be insulting? Sorry. I'm prouder than ever to fly junk and you know what? I have a frickin' blast!

 

[Publishers]

Difference

People will tend to hear what you or I have to say and feel that we are calling them inferior. I personnally do not think that the way to experience is one that has to be painful or flying junk. In todays world, you can fit into a system and spend a career. You are not incompetent or inexperienced.

It is neither skills nor professionalism that is at stake. It is character. That is what you learn. Character that enables you to soar where others fly. It is that which enables you to appreciate where you are and what you are doing.

 

[350DRIVER]

It more or less comes down to what your definition of success, junk, experience, and knowledge is.. Ask five different people and more than likely you will get a wide variety of answers. It has little if anything to do with whether or not you are an airline pilot, big deal and who really cares? Surely most people do not look up to you and praise your accomplishments, you may earn respect from those who know you and this industry but to the majority of the general public you are no more or less of a person than they are. The whole airline analogy was a pretty bad one at best. I have come across many who never had any desire to fly for the airlines let alone a regional one and they are making probably double what a senior RJ captain is making while flying a nice corporate aircraft with a set and easy schedule flying an average of two legs a day if that. Making it to the airlines means very little and it surely should not be "praised" as a "top or ultimate" prize. Let's be real, we are no better than the others out there and they should not be looked down upon in any way shape or form. Once again it basically comes down to personal preferences and the desires of the individual. I still find it funny when I run into the young 20 somethings that are in the right seat of RJ's that think they are the sh!t when in reality they have done absolutely nothing spectacular at all.


Is mar any less of a pilot since he has never made it to a "major", I think not...


3 5 0

 

[taxicabdriver]

Good posts from Mar. I would definately listen to this guy.

 

[vetteracer]

"The lessons you need to learn are in a piece of junk recipe twin overloaded and picking up ice at night with the weather going down at your alternate.

This is how professional pilots learn where the edges are. Some (most) will disagree with me. To hell with them. Before a company entrusts a multi-million dollar ship and 100 lives to your hands you need to have already explored your limits and the physical limits of flight--here's the important part--on your own."

OMG...

This is wonderful.


Mar, You said what I have been thinking for years.

You would not by chance be working for Everett Air would you?.

I spent a lot of time in Fairbanks growing up. My uncle use to own a DC-6 and hauled fuel around with it.

Their use to be an airbase up north with a real funky airstrip, the name escapes me, do you know it? I use to ride in there on the DC-6.

Mark

 

[mar]

Well...um...Thanks!

Is mar any less of a pilot since he has never made it to a "major", I think not...

Now hang on one second. I've had two interviews!

And been rejected twice...(oh so close).

But 350 I just wanted to respond to this: <<The whole airline analogy was a pretty bad one at best.>>

What analogy? I was talking about airlines. What were you talking about?

Vetteracer: I work for NAC. There is an Everts pilot on this board but I won't "out" him unless he wants me too. As far as airstrips up north with funky names...well, there's gotta be a dozen. We fly fuel to Atqasuk, Inigok, Nuiqsut, Umiat, Anatuvuk, any of those sound familiar? Is your uncle still in FAI?

Publishers: you wrote, <<I personnally do not think that the way to experience is one that has to be painful or flying junk.>> *and* <<It is neither skills nor professionalism that is at stake. It is character.>>

I suppose character is pretty important.

But my dad always said that suffering *builds* character, you know, right before he beat the living crap outta me...

"This is gonna hurt me more than..." yeah, I know, just get it over with already...

 

[350DRIVER]

mar,
I wouldn't short change yourself because you didn't get the job on your first two attempts, many people interview 3, 4, and even 5 times before they get that initial break with the airlines.( I would assume you are being sarcastic with a few comments) I am unsure what point you are trying to make? Are you stating that the reason you did not get hired was due to your experience or lack of? I have a hard time buying into that one...I wrote that in response to caveman's comments since I thought it was out of poor taste to make the "airline" job sound any more respected or praised over your job or the many other non-airline aviation jobs that are out there. I didn't think one should take jabs at another "professional" aviator due to the line of work/position that they are currently in. I see the point that he was trying to make after reading it for a second time but surely some of those that are flying so called "junk" are there by choice and preference, not because of lack of flying ability. I have a hard time believing that you are flying "junk" due to lack of ability and skill.... I guess you beat yourself up if you so choose to do so, I personally was siding with you which apparently you neglected to see.

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[mar]

Sorry. I'll turn the sarcasm down.

I admit it. I'm sarcastic. And, yeah, I poke a lot of fun at myself. Somebody's gotta stop me from taking myself too seriously, right?

I understood from the beginning that you were supporting my position. Thank you. I was just picking on your word choice.

I honestly (no sarcasm, I promise) didn't see any analogy in our discussion. Maybe I should go back and read the posts but I've still got dial-up and it takes the pages forever to load.

And you're correct, there are people flying, shall we say, in non-airline type operations that are there because they want to be and *not* because they 'flunked' (my word) out of the system.

As for me and where I stand, well, I happen to think I do have the skill and experience but, honestly, I think I'm about ready to flunk the test of ambition. And for the record, Interview #1: I busted the sim eval. Interview #2: I was never told, but I assume I didn't fit their "profile."

So.

Thank you for helping me to make the point that "airline flying" isn't the final test of one's skill.

I hope we all get to where we'd like to be.

 

[350DRIVER]

Thank you for helping me to make the point that "airline flying" isn't the final test of one's skill.

That was all that I was trying to do....

3 5 0

I hope we all get to where we'd like to be.

Working in the OR at the Cleveland Clinic or John Hopkin's is now out of reach, if only one could re-write history.

life is too short so enjoy it.

I was just picking on your word choice.

or.. "choice of words"

 

[vetteracer]

No, he is in Phoenix now, and the 6 was bought by Cliff Everit (SP).

My dad and my uncle started Alaska Aero Fuel in Fairbanks, and is now owned and operated by their friend Tom Murray. He is a great guy.

I was 7 (circa 1983-4) so my memories are a tad fuzzy. IN the summer of 83 they had a govt. contract to fly fuel in the 6 to an airbase (more like surveillance base) up north. The landing strip was on the side of a mountain. You landed uphill, and of course departed downhill. I had no Idea at the time what the deal was but my dad did, and that was the last time we flew up there with them in the DC-6.

One winter I went to Fairbanks to visit my dad and he was in Prudhoe Bay. I hopped on the 6 as it did flights up there as well. The weather turned bad and we diverted to Barrow. Weather went down there and cleared in Prudhoe so we turned around. Almost out of gas, Prudhoe went down. On the approach 2 engines ran out of gas and quit. The heater had quite about 30-min prior and the windows were all iced up.

On the roll out the pilot opened the side window to see out.

True story. I was 8 or 9 and really had no grasp of the situation.

Mark

 

[zeroline]

All very good points, but..

If your goal is to become an experienced aviator, the advice mar and others give is correct. I "paid my dues," maybee not as much as MAR or many others. But I did my share flight instructing/waiting tables, and picking up ice in an aztec in the middle of the night. I graduated from an aviation university with an internship and hopes of getting hired with low time. At the time I was extremely excited. Since being a kid all I wanted to do was be an airline pilot and here was my golden oportunity. But, because of the way the industry was all I got to do was swim in a pool of hopefuls. Looking back, I think i could've made it through training and IOE and done fine. Some of my buddies would disagree, but not being hired at low time was the BEST thing that could've happened to me. Had I gotten a job flying in the right seat of an RJ right out of college, I could have been, as 350 calls it, "one of those right seat FO drivers who thinks they are the sh!!t" I completely understand that attitude, there were low-time guys who got hired 6 months before furloughs started who in class complained about getting the prop instead of the jet! WTF! At the time it knda pissed me off cause i just felt fortunate to have a job, but if I heard that now Id defiantley give the guy my 2 cents. I have had so many good experiences and met some really good people in the last few years, I would easily trade a right seat FO job right out of college to spend a few years gaining experience.

However, my long-term goal is still to get with a good corporate or airliner one day. Which brings me to my next point.

Getting the experience definately matters to help you be a better pilot. The problem is if you have aspirations to be a corporate or airline pilot, there not looking for just a good pilot. There looking for a good person. From my experience with talking to various interviewing captains and HR people, they basically ask themselves three main questions when done with the interview: 1) Can this person get through training. 2) Is this a safe person and 3) (some say this is the most important) Can I spend four days in the cockpit with this person and sill like them afterwards. A good amount of people dont get hired because of the third reason (which is also just another way of saying having a good attitude). Now Im not saying that just cause your not hired based on attitude you have a bad one. Its just that you didnt give the interviewers that perception. Could be because of nerves or whatever. Thats why it can take people a few interviews before they actually get hired. Now what sucks is, it works the other way too. I know a good share of a$$ holes who are good actors too and can put on a big happy smile for 45 minutes while being interviewed.

Don't I have the skills or professionalism to make it to the airlines? I suppose one could make that point.

From reading your posts, I have no doubt that you have the skills and professionalism to get to the airlines.
I am also not saying someone wouldnt want to spend four days in a cockpit with you. But you might not have given the interviewers the feeling you did.

So, the moral of this all is: Dont be in a huge hurry, get some good experience, ENJOY WHAT YOU DO, and when your ready for that "big job" know how to play the game to get there.

PS please excuse any spelling or grammar errors---I did graduate from an aviation university

 

[johnpeace]

All I ever want to do is fly a king air...if someday I luck into a lear or citation job, I'll be on cloud 9.

But I swear...I'll be sending a resume to Mar's company as soon as I have 1200/200!

 

[Indigo]

All I ever want to do is fly a king air...if someday I luck into a lear or citation job, I'll be on cloud 9.

In that case it's good that you didn't go the Mesa route. Companies like this would rather see more PIC time where you are out making decisions on your own. There was lots of good advice in this thread.

 

[Publishers]

Think

Think about it --- did you ever learn much when everything went right? How much growth came from being in the right place at the right time?

The fact is that we all develop our own boats and once we get comfortable, it is difficult to get out of that boat and explore the waters. In this profession, there are probably more that will because a certain amount of faith and confidence is required to fly aircraft. Still we tend to look at the guy in the other boat and think we want to be there.

I know when I grew up, I thought about becoming an airline pilot but there is a routine and system there that you have to fit into and I did not. Wearing that uniform where you looked like the next bloke was not me at all. I did want to fly though and so bought an airplane and set about learning how to fly it. I loved it. There was more to learn though and there were more airplanes and more licenses. With each challenge there was personal growth and satisfaction.

Later, the hobby became a business but it was still fun. We bought a charter company and I would go fly the check runs at night after working all day with the pilot being paid beside me. It made me a better pilot and a better boss. Still, issues came along that made me get out of the boat that was comfortable. We started a 121 carrier. Later it was into the airlines in a number of senior capacities. Each time when comfort came, something happened to get me out of that comfortable boat.

Like the economy and the airline industry, we all go through cycles. The life events that cause us to get out of the boat often lead us to our next one. Somewhere there is a boat that has my name.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Mar

First of all: Mar. BEST POST I'VE EVER READ! (the first one) Absolutely should be required reading for ANYONE who is looking to bridge the gap from Apache or Seminole to Dash 8 or CRJ. Well done!

You know, every year or so somebody starts a similar thread. Last year I posted one which I titled, "Unrealistic Expectations"

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=9038&highlight=unrealistic+expectations

If you've read it you'll see that you and I followed different paths and have measured our success differently. I too was furloughed a number of times. I too plugged away in less-than-state-of-the-art equipment (C402s, J-31, Metro..) I grabbed at the so-called "brass-ring" and took a chance on a major. And now after 09/11 i'm starting over again.

Interestingly, despite the fact that our careers went in such different directions, our vision for how the career progression of the newcomers to the industry should go appears identical.

Anyhow, great post. Great thread. This is vintage Flightinfo.com and is truly good reading!

Well done!

 

[johnpeace]

I'm so glad I didn't wind up at Mesa...if I'd known then what I know now (which I've been taught by members of this forum), I wouldn't even have considered it.

Thanks all for a very candid view at the industry and a realistic guide to getting where you want to go!

I'm on my way.

Mar, I'd love to buy you a beer or lunch or something...

 

[mar]

So much to respond to...

...and I don't have much time.

Vetteracer: Alaska Aerofuel! Wow! Great bunch of guys. That's where we get our fuel from. They're a first class operation. Quite a story about the SCC-BRW-SCC flight. Every great low fuel story also includes an iced-up windscreen. Holy cow. I can hear the nervous laughter from here. The funky strip sounds like either a radar site or a mining strip. It could be Indian Mountain, Sparrevohn, Donlin Creek...um there are others but I gotta run.

zeroline: Thanks for your comments!

Furloughed Again: Thank you too for your comments. I remember that thread. Great stuff. I agree, we should hold annual refresher courses for those new to the industry--twisted as it is...

Johnpeace: Lunch or beer? How about lunch *and* beer? Kidding. This is your thread, I'm glad you got something out of it rather than flames and other garbage that send so many away from these boards.

Good luck out there.
Gotta run.

 

[enigma]

How could a liberal be so RIGHT? and logical. MAR, you are the man.

This might just be the second best string ever on Flightinfo. Duke Elegant gets #1.

Johnpeace, Yes the industry cycles. No, the cycles don't make any sense. First, as another writer aluded to, the swings have many causes; some of those were/are: pilot supply, regulatory environment, economic environment, war, terrorism,and consumer preferences. For most of the last century, the pilot supply was driven by war. We trained a heck of a lot of military pilots during the war years and went stagnent in the out years. Currently, the Vietnam era pilot is nearing retirement. Since war really can't be predicted, it makes it hard to predict this cycle. The regulatory environment has taken only one dramatic change in recent history (deregulation in 1978 and 79), so that also makes it hard to use regs as a predictor. The economy does make fairly regular cycles, most armchair economists assume that these cycles occur ever seven or so years. Terrorism also seems hard to predict. Consumer preferences always change, once again making this a sorry predictor.

Which leaves us with an industry affected, largely at random, by unpredictable events. Don't worry about having missed an upswing, just be ready for the next one.

John, you originally asked for encouragement. So, don't look back, what's behind you is of no importance. If you understand the life of a professional pilot, and know where you want to be; and, are ready to make the necessary sacrifices, you WILL succeed.

Good Luck,
enigma

 

[mar]

Logic.

How could a liberal be so RIGHT? and logical. MAR, you are the man.

Well, I'll be. Logical, eh?

Would you believe I can be just as logical in areas like health care, education, constitutional rights and foreign policy?

Ah nevermind, let's not derail this thread OK? I kinda like the pats on the back for a change.

Peace, or, whatever blows yer hair back.
(sorry, more sarcasm, I gotta knock that off)

 

[Whirlwind]

I fly junk.

The longer the road to the airlines, the better pilot you'll be.

Forget about jets right now. Jets are for people with little minds. Sure they're shiney and fast. Lots of state-of-the-art gizmos and such. It's all for people who can't fly.

Mar, to some extent, I agree with you... When I started this journey as a pilot, I didn't want to be a CFI either, but I wouldn't trade the last 9 months of instructing for anything. I cannot tell you how much being a CFI has taught me, but it has been at least as much as all my training put together.

This being said, the problem with the advice "fly junk", is that you must survive the experience to get something out of it. Getting killed defeats the entire point...

Besides, that 300 hour wonder pilot sitting up front in the right seat isn't flying the airplane, the 2,000 hour Captain is.

Regardless, I do agree that there are some lessons that only experience can teach, and flying to the same dozen airports in a CRJ does not teach many of them.

Fly Safe!