Indian AF "cleans" USAF's clock

[XShipRider]

As Paul Harvey says... the rest of the story

More recently, an exercise with the Indian
Air Force—Cope India—in February 2004 has
been cited as evidence of the need to build the
F-22. The fact that U.S. F-15s were defeated
more than 90 percent of the time in direct
combat exercises by their Indian Air Force
counterparts led Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander
of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air
Force Base in Alaska, to remark, “The major
takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction
of needing to replace the F-15 with the
F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and
smarter about other [countries’] capabilities
around the world and what technology is​

limited to in the F-15 airframe.”

But keep reading the same article...​

But in that exercise U.S. F-15s were outnumbered​

three or four to one. That is an​

unlikely scenario against likely adversaries,

which a simple comparison of fighter aircraft

inventories makes apparent. According to the
IISS, the U.S. Air Force has some 600 F-15
Eagles and some 700 F-16 Fighting Falcons in
the active duty inventory (1,300 total tactical
fighter aircraft).By comparison, Russia (no
longer considered an adversary) has 908 fighter
aircraft (fewer than 600 total MiG-29s and
Su-27s) in its inventory, China (a possible military
competitor) has some 1,000 fighter aircraft
(only 100 Su-27s), North Korea (a member
of the “axis of evil”) has a few more than
500 fighter aircraft (30 MiG-29s), Iran (another
member of the “axis of evil”) has only 75
fighter aircraft (25 MiG-29s), and Syria (a
country classified as a rogue state) has 300
fighter aircraft (42 MiG-29s and 8 Su-27s).So
even if it is possible in an exercise for relatively
well-trained Indian pilots outnumbering U.S.
fighters three or four to one to achieve high
tactical success, it is difficult to see how real
adversaries would be able to similarly outnumber
U.S. aircraft with fighters that are the equal
of the F-15 and F-16.
​

​

The entire article: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3711

India cleaning USAF's clock sounds like great justification to fund the
F-22.​

 

[MarineGrunt]

Now someone has to "clean our tankers" clock so we can get some 767s! imp:

 

[DaveGriffin]

The entire article: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3711​

India cleaning USAF's clock sounds like great justification to fund the

F-22.​

The AF top brass are great sandbaggers and when it comes to playing the congressional budget game.

I'd rather see .2x of the F-22 budget go towards finishing the secret tunnel under the Bering Straits, perfecting the Zinc bomb and maybe a new airplane to replace the A-10.

 

[scoreboard]

The AF top brass are great sandbaggers and when it comes to playing the congressional budget game.

I'd rather see .2x of the F-22 budget go towards finishing the secret tunnel under the Bering Straits, perfecting the Zinc bomb and maybe a new airplane to replace the A-10.

Zinc bomb?


A-10 replacement? No. What you need to do is have the Marines and Army properly fund their own rotory aviation. Properly funded, you would have all the on call direct fire close support the men on the ground need.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Zinc bomb?


A-10 replacement? No. What you need to do is have the Marines and Army properly fund their own rotory aviation. Properly funded, you would have all the on call direct fire close support the men on the ground need.

That's good by me. We can cut the AF budget and manning levels by 70%, rename it the US Space Command and have all CAS and air supremacy supplied by the Army, Navy and Marines.

You guys can also handle some of the big UAV stuff, but the unit specific small UAVs will still be handled by the ground commanders; you'll just have to get clearance from the ground guys to fly in their airspace.

 

[scoreboard]

That's good by me. We can cut the AF budget and manning levels by 70%, rename it the US Space Command and have all CAS and air supremacy supplied by the Army, Navy and Marines.

You guys can also handle some of the big UAV stuff, but the unit specific small UAVs will still be handled by the ground commanders; you'll just have to get clearance from the ground guys to fly in their airspace.

Easy Dave, it's easy to point blame at a team who fields the pretty uniforms. Simply, neither the Navy nor USAF has done a good job at this side of the FEBA activity. Strafing with Harriers or F-18's? YGBSM. Waiting for a JDAM from a Buff while your taking fire? YGBSM.

What the Army and Marines must do is to fully fund their needs, note I said needs. Needs that should include a robust rotary wing force. Period. Not a dime to fixed wing assets. Why? It's organic. Why don't they? Because the Navy wouldn't get those big floaty ships and the Army wouldn't get those big brown tanks if they funded the rotary wings. This is NOT the USAF's problem, it's the Navy, Marine and Armys problem.

But since you brought up the funding thing, who put those GPS satellites into orbit, drones in the air, fly the parts in and wounded men out? The USAF. Not the Navy, not the Army, nor the Marines. We are all a team. Taking crap shots at the USAF for being good at funding and planning is sour grapes at best. When was the last time any US serviceman was attacked by a foreign airforce? Thank-you, USAF F-15's.

We need every F-22, JSF, C-17 we get. The USAF IS beyond the FEBA proficient, we stop the war of tomorrow in more ways than one. We also need service commanders who are willing to say and go to bat for what they need, rotary aviation. This shouldn't be a crap shot against a service that gets funding for it's needs, it should be a discussion about those who can't get it for their own.

 

[guppygoshawk]

Strafing with Harriers or F-18's? YGBSM.

Have you seen Hornets have problems strafing? I haven't.

 

[scoreboard]

Have you seen Hornets have problems strafing? I haven't.

Yes, I have. While under fire from Iraqi's 16 years ago. The problem isn't the F-18 nor it's systems. I had a flight of 4 F-18's I couldn't use, the Army couln't decide in time to use them. It's a great aircraft, the problem is the system of CAS in place which relies on fixed wing assets that are rarely there when needed, thats just plain wrong. Rotary wing can be there, loiter, conceal, deliver with accuracy beyond fixed wing, yet the military insists on using jets flying 500 knots to support the guy in a foxhole, ludicrous.

 

[guppygoshawk]

Yes, I have. While under fire from Iraqi's 16 years ago. The problem isn't the F-18 nor it's systems. I had a flight of 4 F-18's I couldn't use, the Army couln't decide in time to use them. It's a great aircraft, the problem is the system of CAS in place which relies on fixed wing assets that are rarely there when needed, thats just plain wrong. Rotary wing can be there, loiter, conceal, deliver with accuracy beyond fixed wing, yet the military insists on using jets flying 500 knots to support the guy in a foxhole, ludicrous.

This isn't sixteen years ago, however. I've seen better results from fast-movers, several months ago. Jets moving at 500 knots can be on location for CAS a heck of a lot quicker in a large geographical area than helos that need to almost be on-site at the time of the request. Fast-movers spend less time in the threat envelope with more firepower to bear in the current situation, period. You can't question the accuracy of F-18 assests in the current situations. that is without question. The helos do great CAS work, I don't want to take away from that. Their loiterr time is unquestionably better. They can make better use of terrain concealment. However, for current on-call assests, -18s, -16s and A-10s are where its at.

 

[scoreboard]

This isn't sixteen years ago, however. I've seen better results from fast-movers, several months ago. Jets moving at 500 knots can be on location for CAS a heck of a lot quicker in a large geographical area than helos that need to almost be on-site at the time of the request. Fast-movers spend less time in the threat envelope with more firepower to bear in the current situation, period. You can't question the accuracy of F-18 assests in the current situations. that is without question. The helos do great CAS work, I don't want to take away from that. Their loiterr time is unquestionably better. They can make better use of terrain concealment. However, for current on-call assests, -18s, -16s and A-10s are where its at.

Your right, nothing that happened sixteen years ago matters, nor 20, nor 63. Back in the day there was no option, Helo's didn't exist. Today? They exist but only to the level of alowing the Army/Marines to fund bigger and better projects. Every piece of air moving today over the heads of our boys needs to be a helo, and they are not getting enough.

Interesting how you as a fast mover claim that jets are the perfect on call asset. I scoff, Helos organic to each unit is the answer, until that happens, the boys on the ground will be waiting for you to take the 9 line and load em up, then do the brief and deliver. All while the kid on the ground is taking lead. Organic Helo's onsite would keep them badguys from even raising their head to range a target, Helos are part of the mission, not the rescue force that fixed wing has become.

I like your attitude, but once you have been on the ground in a fire fight or two, you begin to understand that some simple solutions to the CAS problem are all thats really needed. Helos'.

Now, don't get all spunup, fixed wing doing CAS is needed, but it is not the best option. Fixed wing is great at BAI and other deep interdiction type affairs. CAS? Nope.

 

[guppygoshawk]

Your right, nothing that happened sixteen years ago matters, nor 20, nor 63. Back in the day there was no option, Helo's didn't exist. Today? They exist but only to the level of alowing the Army/Marines to fund bigger and better projects. Every piece of air moving today over the heads of our boys needs to be a helo, and they are not getting enough.

Interesting how you as a fast mover claim that jets are the perfect on call asset. I scoff, Helos organic to each unit is the answer, until that happens, the boys on the ground will be waiting for you to take the 9 line and load em up, then do the brief and deliver. All while the kid on the ground is taking lead. Organic Helo's onsite would keep them badguys from even raising their head to range a target, Helos are part of the mission, not the rescue force that fixed wing has become.

I like your attitude, but once you have been on the ground in a fire fight or two, you begin to understand that some simple solutions to the CAS problem are all thats really needed. Helos'.

Now, don't get all spunup, fixed wing doing CAS is needed, but it is not the best option. Fixed wing is great at BAI and other deep interdiction type affairs. CAS? Nope.

So you've been on the ground in a firefight? Let me be the first to say, I owe you my gratitude. In that case, I like your attitude. I also think that it would be wonderful if each individual unit had their own helo protection force. However, that is just not feasible. Just my experience. I've done fixed-wing fast-mover combat CAS and I guess I was lucky enough for it to work out well for the guy on the ground. Every time. I'm sure that if every guy on the ground had their preference, they wouldn't ever enter into the situation where they needed to call upon air assets of any sort. Just glad we were able to provide what they needed. If you've been on the ground in a firefight as you've insinuated, then maybe you can provide insight as to where rotary-wing vs. fixed wing has been more practical as of late. I'm very intersted to hear.

 

[scoreboard]

So you've been on the ground in a firefight? Let me be the first to say, I owe you my gratitude. In that case, I like your attitude. I also think that it would be wonderful if each individual unit had their own helo protection force. However, that is just not feasible. Just my experience. I've done fixed-wing fast-mover combat CAS and I guess I was lucky enough for it to work out well for the guy on the ground. Every time. I'm sure that if every guy on the ground had their preference, they wouldn't ever enter into the situation where they needed to call upon air assets of any sort. Just glad we were able to provide what they needed. If you've been on the ground in a firefight as you've insinuated, then maybe you can provide insight as to where rotary-wing vs. fixed wing has been more practical as of late. I'm very intersted to hear.

Man your getting me ready to start buying beers.

You make a good point, Helos in each unit. WHY NOT? Theres a tank in each tank unit, an F-16 in every F-16 unit, why not a helo or 10 in each ground battalion unit? I know, money.

We'll, I got tired of seeing it done on the cheap (yes, fast moving CAS is cheaper than Helo, but whats the cost, it cost lives).

You my man are the perfect example of your environment, you love your job and love that your doing it well, I salute you. Beat your chest every Friday in the bar, nobody does it better. BUT, what is the best for the guy on the ground? Helos. Don't get me wrong, jets need to do CAS when Helos are not around, jets do it well, very well, just no as well, thats my only point, why don't we have more helos?

The problem, choices by others way above the paygrade we'll ever see. Fixed wing is practical, but is it the best option? Is it the cheapest in terms of lives lost waiting for it? I think not, and thats from a 20 year F-15C guy, who just happened to be in the right place at the wrong time and saw DS1 from the ground. Great fireworks. Have fun, I did. But it is all about the 18 year old taking fire on the ground.

Oh, where can Helos do better today than fastcas? Prevention. Just like Nukes, they won't strike if they know their going to get pummelled. Your employing with fast CAS that the enemy isn't even considering, they can't see you, nor hear you, so they act as if you don't exist. Which is a problem, if they hear helos, they keep their heads down. It's deterence by presence. Thats the difference.

Oh, and last time I checked nothing on these boards changes the way you operate in the world you are in, keep up the good work, leave the worrying to us old grumpy farts.

 

[JimNtexas]

Zinc bomb?


A-10 replacement? No. What you need to do is have the Marines and Army properly fund their own rotory aviation. Properly funded, you would have all the on call direct fire close support the men on the ground need.

If you are not already a USAF general, you are surely GO material with an attitude like that!

 

[JimNtexas]

" We need every F-22"

No we don't. At most we need less than 200 of these overpriced toys to defeat the Indian hordes.

 

[frog_flyer]

EEEK, scoreboard. Don't let USAF take credit for UAVs... blame it on someone else.